dannyk

I am curious about my own beliefs in the sense that i consider myself an atheist, yet believe in some 'reason' for the universe i find myself in . I dont believe in god as such and dont believe that we as humans could be able to grasp the true essence or structure of god if he existed. Yet as previously stated i do believe in a 'reason' . I am not 'philosophically' experienced hence i pose the question , "am i being inconsistent ?"
Your thoughts would be appreciated :-)

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: dannyk ]</p>

Perchance

Since I tend to define an atheist as someone who lacks belief in God or doesn't think that God exists, I don't think it's inconsistent, depending on what kind of 'reason' you believe in.

I myself don't believe that the universe has a "destiny," "reason," "point," "goal," or whatever you want to call it. I certainly don't think that the universe is here to honor us. I don't think we're living our lives for a "purpose" (whether that be to honor God, to learn lessons through reincarnation, or anything else).

On the other hand, that doesn't exclude human-created purposes. There are humanists who feel that the purpose of life is to make things better for humanity, for example. Others find purpose in making things better for a small section of humanity, or in making themselves happy, or in protecting their countries, or in creating art. I think there are any number of things to live for, and in that sense, I suppose, it could be said that there is a "purpose" to life.

I believe that you could even say there is "purpose" to the universe if you like to look at the stars and think they're beautiful (as I do), or if you appreciate the beauty of nature. I think the only danger lies in starting to think that something made this universe for us, that there must be a force behind it directing it towards some goal, and that that goal has humanity at its center.

Perhaps I should stop rambling and let you talk . What kind of "reason" do you believe in?

-Perchance.

Autonemesis

A good start would be to clear up what you mean by "a reason". Do you mean the universe has a purpose or a goal? Or do you mean that it is intended to serve some function?

If the former, who set the goal? What is the goal?

If the latter, what function and to what end does it function? Is it part of a bigger something?

I imagine there are some other meanings of "a reason" that I haven't thought of.

dannyk

Thankyou for your post. I am with great difficulty trying to convey my thoughts in to words , but here goes .
A reason i would feel confortably fits within the idea of a "reason" for this universe that i previously mentioned , would be as follows.
1.Some event somewhere inadvertently caused this universe to come into existence.
2 This events sole causal connection with this universe was purely the inadvertent event.
3.The universe coming into being was purely a byproduct of this event and had no influence upon the event itself. (mmm does that make sense)

In short , my concept of a reason , is a reason that doesnt exist in this universe,hence there are no causal implications (destiny , a goal etc)for this universe as a result of the reason .
I am treading on thin ice here i am very sure , but i think that is close to what i would envisage my "reason" to be .
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

John Page

The word I'm having trouble with here is "inadvertent". Physical events, as far as we know, don't have any human-like intentions so the best we can say is "Some event somewhere caused..."

I'll pass on the "Big Bang" issue as to whether existence came into being... how can you have a time before time began and events need time to take place... apart from the acceleration of light which we're told doesn't happen light just instantaneously attains its terminal velocity. Too confusing for me.

Cheers, John

Autonemesis

Do you mean the universe is an accidental by-product of some other process we can't know about? Some advanced civilization's science experiment with unknown side effects, or something like that?

dannyk

I appreciate the point regarding the word inadvertent, it doesnt sit to comfortably with what im trying to say.
An accidental by product of an unknowable process sounds fine to me , but i dont think i could extrapolate any further.
So if that was the case , does this reason or the belief of it , conflict with atheism ?
i do see that holding this belief does require 'faith' but does that in itself conflict with atheism .
On that point about scientific experiments , i do remember Alan Guth discussing the possibility in a book about inflation.

Autonemesis

I don't see that it conflicts per se, after all, atheism is simply a word that can be used to describe a worldview or belief system that lacks a diety idea. Usually, but not always, it refers to a negation of the particular idea of God as Creator and Lawgiver.

But I have to wonder what your idea adds to your understanding of this universe. Is your belief in that simply a way to settle the question in your mind, that existence really is pointless, an accident? Or do you get something else, some other insight out of it?

I think if it doesn't add anything to your knowledge or offer hope of further discoveries, then it's no different than faith in god as a way to settle the unsettling questions. I would certainly prefer people believed that existence was something like a science project gone wrong, than that it was created by an omnipotent being who wants to play... err, God with us. Then we might just be able to get down to enjoying our good fortune at having accidently been made to appear.

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]</p>

goody2shoes

An atheist is simply a person who does not want to admit that there is a creator of the universe and
(From whom) a moral and ethical value system comes.

Anyone who wants to really "find" God can do so if he or she really wants to do so.

Those who wish to proclaim themselves as self-important will never find God.

And most on this list are in that egotistical category ---- are you not?


Goody

dannyk

I think believing the universe is an accident allows me to feel more at home