Jamie_L

A hypothetical for theists:

Suppose a person has been raised in total isolation in a purely secular environment. He has never heard of god, but has also never been taught a god does not exist. It is a new concept.

You meet this person, and he is fascinated with the concept of god - it is new and he is curious. After understanding what your concept of god is, he asks "why should I believe this?"

What is your answer?

I'm curious, because it seems that the reasons we use in argument sometimes are not really the things that actually convinced us of our positions. Likewise, the solid, structured arguments we use against opponents are often not the same reasons we give to someone in a less antagonistic setting.

Jamie

DarkBronzePlant

I'm curious as to what type of answer theists would give to this. My guess is that most will be along the lines of either "Don't you want to know that you'll go to heaven after you die?" or "Well, because chaos and mayhem would reign if people like you decided not to believe in god," and little along the lines of proof or evidence that such belief is correct.

ImGod

I'm curious, because it seems that the reasons we use in argument sometimes are not really the things that actually convinced us of our positions. Likewise, the solid, structured arguments we use against opponents are often not the same reasons we give to someone in a less antagonistic setting.

If you look at the majority of people that join or stay with a religion, they do so for emotional rather than logical reasons. Most successful "missionaries" get their converts when they are emotionally down or in a time of crisis. The crisis in the convert's life leaves them looking for something more than just logical conclusions. Comfort.

The indoctrination into a religion is typically subtle. My past denomination used the come join us, no pressure, figure things out on your own time method. They used peer support and watered down spirituality so as not to frighten away the new comers. My old church had one sermon on the concepts of hell in the 7 years I attended. Most topics were on how to build your relationship with god.

Churches provide an immediate support structure if you move to new locations or have problems you don't think anyone will understand. Confidential meetings with clergy or teaching you to meditate (pray) for an answer. The emotional support and comfort con you into believing that a higher power is in control.

Human emotions usually override reasoning. Take a new relationship for example. When you meet someone the newness and excitement can mask character flaws in an individual that are apparent to friends or family.

There is much less of a chance that a person raised with critical thinking skills will join a religion. Almost certainly not given the typical arguments the church presents. However, many rational individuals (myself included) did not see the error in the reasoning of religion.

I was willing to go along with religion for social and support reasons and simply ignored the inconsistencies in the reference texts and the practices of the church. It wasn't until I applied more critical thinking to religion did I see that I compromised too much of who I am to justify the social/emotional aspects of the church.

Long winded, I know. But you got me thinking.

[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: ImGod ]</p>

emotional

Religion is a bit like football: you want to belong to a team, and you're sure your team is the one that's going to win it all. The "Us vs Them" mentality is particularly striking.

GunnerJ

::Counts off seconds till this thread gets mired in the Inateness debate::

Makai

While I'm not a theist, I've heard the same response from a few people, and it's pretty much as ImGod said, "...emotional rather than logical reasons."

My one friend, a Methodist, told me that he realizes that in all likelihood, that there isn't a God. He refuses to debate anything with me, because he says that my position is almost guaranteed to win. And more importantly, it doesn't matter to him how unlikely it is God exists. He believes because it makes him feel secure, happy, and reassured. I've tried repeatedly to break him out of his 'belief' based on emotion, but have failed. Rational concerns are of no matter to him; he sees no reason to not believe when belief supposedly reassures him.

-Makai

Ojuice5001

I would tell him that belief in gods answers these questions: "If there were creatures greater in intelligence and power than a human, what would they be like?" and "Why do we have the events, such as weather, that we do? I mean, I know there's a science called meteorology, but when it comes right down to it, why is there a cold front over Florida at this particular day? Wouldn't a warm front make just as much sense?"

These questions are unanswerable by reason. With regard to the first question, a cat could never come up with the idea of humans on its own. It has to meet humans, and then it can have the idea. With regard to the second question, all the meteorology in the world can only tell us which atmospheric events are followed by which other events. Meteorology has never even made the slightest progress in saying why the atmosphere wasn't in a slightly different position, so that we had completely different weather. And that's if I grant that determinism is true, which I do not believe.

So I don't think reason will ever come up with the answers to those questions. Why not go with intuition at this point, and believe in what the typical person's intuition has always told him--that the gods are the answer to both questions. I know I'm guessing, like (some would say) the first person who, like me, believed in Jupiter, but really, that seems better than putting stock in all the failed arguments for Christianity and naturalistic atheism. If those arguments are so great, why haven't you two groups convinced each other by now?

[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Ojuice5001 ]</p>

critical thinking made ez

It gives you POWER AND CONTROL.

Once you're in good with God, you can harness his unlimited power to control events and people via prayer.

[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: critical thinking made ez ]</p>

CodeMason

1. The being would not have to be God. I define a "rughlaraermal" as a creature greater in intelligence and power than a human. So should people believe in it?
2. If such a question makes such entities exist, what happens if God himself asks it?
If a coin comes up heads and not tails when I flip it, does that mean God exists too? We rational people like to call it randomness, or chaos.

Albert Cipriani

Dear Jamie,
You ask,


Belief is the means of harnessing your intellectual and imaginative powers for the expression of gratitude. It functions, as idols, to help you focus your will outward (towards what's interesting).

If you do not believe in God, your logic will doom you to a fate worse than slavery: you yourself will have to assume the role of god. Until or unless ET arrives, this imposition upon your humanity will cripple your ability to be grateful and force your will inward (toward boredom). – Albert the Traditional Catholic