Eikonoklast

Sorry, but you might as well say that atheists are necessarily communists because the USSR was an atheist state. It's a non sequitur. Slavery is not compatible with libertarianism by definition. People do not own other people. That's the whole point. And we are talking about capitalism within the context of a libertarian society; not some quasi socialist society.

AtomSmasher

Likewise, a childish derision does not constitute a rebuttal.

Indeed mercantilism has been practiced by many cultures but it was first established as an economic base by the Roman and Arab empires of Europe and the Middle East because free trade requires maintained and protected trade routes.

Please describe how mercantilism was historically conditioned, and did not arise naturally as solution to supply and demand.

Slavery in the American south (and South America, the Carribean, and the rest of the world) was used to meet the international demand for cheap goods. Primarily cotton in the American south, at the time there was no cheap and effective means of producing cotton on a large scale using waged workers. Slaves were imported to reduce the costs of production until the cotton gin made cotton production economical without the use of forced labor. Had there never been use of slaves, production would have continued at a higher cost, it was the greed of individuals that caused the suffering of millions -- not the capitalist system.

Your arguments do not support your conclusion. "(The US Civil War was an internal conflict between two modes of capitalism: slavery and industrialism, which could not coexist.)" Yet capitalism thrives without the use of slavery. Slavery and forced labor occur the world over, with or without capitalism. In fact, during the 1920's and 30's millions Russians died in forced labor projects. Unless you can argue that Joseph Stalin capitalized on slave labor then slavery is no more integral to capitalism then it is to any other economic system.

RED DAVE

Again, you are missing the point. Mercantilism is not the same as foreign trade. Trade goes back to prehistory. Mercantilism was a stage in the development of capitalism. When I say "historically conditioned," I mean it took place at a certain time.

The capitalist system is what capitalism has been through the ages. Capitalism is not an idea or an ideal but an economic system that has existed for about 500 years. Slavery was part of capitalism from the start, and, therefore, slavery is part of the capitalism system. If it was there, always was there, you can't call it a flaw in the system.

I anm not saying that capitalism is the only system that employed slavery. What I am saying is that capitalism did employ slavery for hundreds of years, and, therefore, slavery was part of capitalism as it actually existed. Capitalism is not a fixed entity. It changes. However, if we want to define capitalism, we have to define it to include all its historical modes, including slavery.

Your arguments about communism still make no sense. We are discussing capitalism and racism (lest we forget).

RED DAVE

lpetrich

Although slavery is not a necessary part of capitalism, slavery has usually been practiced in capitalist fashion. Certainly, New World plantation slavery has been essentially 100% capitalist. The slave traders were capitalists and the plantation owners were capitalists. With governments doing what pro-capitalist ideologues think that governments ought to do -- protect capitalists and their property from their opponents.

Seen in this light, the Confederate Government, by attempting to protect slavery, was protecting the investments of slaveowners from attempts to steal from those owners by slavery abolitionists.

Furthermore, before the Civil War, there was a big controversy over whether slaveowners ought to be compensated for the freeing of their slaves, since they would clearly be deprived of their property.

AtomSmasher

You are correct. I was using the term (improperly) to describe mercantile trade, not a government system of regulated trade.

Again, slavery is not a part of capitalism. Slavery is simply a method of exploitation and it can exist under any economic system. Saying that "Slavery was part of capitalism from the start, and, therefore, slavery is part of the capitalism system." Is like saying, "Slave trading was practiced by Christians from the start, and, therefore, slavery is a part of the Christian religion."

Very well, if we must define something by including its ancillaries in that definition then we must redefine all political and/or economic systems that have at one time exhibited any primitive or brutal historical modes -- most of which will include racism and slavery. If you are insisting on the satin-clean version of human governence, I'm afraid the list is rather bare.

My remarks about communism were used to contrast it with capitalism as an alternative economic system. Just as fascism at one point supported genocide, therefor when we define fascism we must always define it as supporting genocide? You made the claim that capitalism supports racism, I have rebutted that argument and provided counter-examples showing that other economic systems support racism and slavery. Therefore, either most economic systems support slavery or humans support slavery and economies may profit from it. If past atrocities are the measure of a political/economic system then most of them are dismissable right out. Realisticly we must consider any government or economic system in the context of its alternatives.

RED DAVE

From AtomSmasher:

You are making the same mistake with regard to slavery that you made with regard to mercantilism. Yes, slavery, like foreign trade, was present in precapitalist societies. However, just as capitalism brought foreign trade to a new, higher level, mercantilism, it brought slavery to a new, higher level, involving huge resources, organized trade an enormous plantations.

Very bare, indeed. This country has just put the finishing touches to 12 years of torturing Iraq, which resulted in the deaths of over 1,000,000 Iraqis, MOST OF THE CHILDREN!

Yes, fascism, as it has existed historically, is always connected, directly or indirectly with genocide. The Italians practiced it in Italy. The Germans practiced it everywhere they could, and native fascisms like those in Rumanis were the partners of the Germans. I don't look forward to a kinder, gentler fascism.

What you are saying here is: Hey, all previous societies are racist and condoned or practiced slavery and other abominations. So, "realistically," let's give into to this and not fight it. Thios is a profoundly conservative and pessimistic (not ot say sadistic) world view. I can imagine, believe in, and fight for a world without racism, war and oppression. If I can hold that vision, so can you.

I am by no means extraordinary or special. I just have a passion for freedom!

RED DAVe

Eikonoklast

Hey Red Dave -- Could you please show how slavery would coexist with capitalism within the context of a libertarian society? Thanks.


does anybody here ever go to sleep?

meritocrat

\
Even though this thread has been hijacked, affirmative action is a racist policy in itself.

RED DAVE

From Eikonoklast:

Well, Jefferson the slave owner (and impregnator of his slavegirl, Sally Hemmings) is one of your lib idols, and he had no problem with slavery.

But that's just a quick shot. Here's my real answer: there is no libertarian society. You can fantasize about any kind of society you like, but these are just dreams. Actual, living capitalism, created a new system of mass slavery right from the beginning (the origins of the African slave trade and the advent of capitalism are virtually simultaneous, historically). And, so "addicted" was one wing of capitalism to slavery that it took the bloodiest war in American history to end it.

As a socialist, I can fantasize any kind of utopia I want. However, i fucking well better remember what happened when a real socialist revolution, Russia, 1917, turned, by counter-revolution into something else. Likewise, you libs have to mind your back and front yards. you love capitalism: take responsibility for its endemic racism. you can't dream it away any more than I can dream away the gulag.

RED DAVE

AtomSmasher

O.K.

Red Herring. This has nothing to do with capitalism or slavery.

Nor do I, however genocide is not a tenet of fascism but corrolary.

Nice straw man. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that slavery may have been inclusive of capitalist societies in the past, but it was the same for other societies regardless of capitalism. So they must all be judged with equal skepticism.

No, it is a realistic and liberal world view. Capitalism works, it's not perfect but it has proven itself the only effective and fair means by which people can deal with each other through fair exchange of values. Plan economies rely on coercion to meet demands, free market economies rely on individualism and ambition.

Then we are comrades indeed.
:notworthy