doodad

If you have proof that God then let's see it. Either put up or shut up.

hinduwoman

Farseeker,
we atheists do not have the same political leanings. Just look at the Iraqi forum; there are diehard materialists who support Bush while others don't.
Saying that all atheists are communists/fascists is like saying all Americans are Republicans: they have to be Republicans because they are Americans.

I want to kill believers when they are trying to kill me; I throw believers out of my house when they try to convert me; I do not want to kill them just them because they believe in God.

7thangel

Thanks for the respond, David.

I do not disagree with you. We can accuse of God of murder based on our definition of murder. In fact, let us add Jesus Christ in the scene. God is lunatic, crazy, blood thirsty, mad, for Him to sacrifice a human being, in the person of Jesus Christ, to save the unworthy. All these we can do if we are ignorant of the godhead.

If we really would understand the messages behind the stories and events in the bible, they pose to explain the very nature of man. Why do you think the law is actually useless? Why is it that we cannot save ourselves, or why our works has nothing to do with our salvation? Simple answer: we are saved by God’s ”Predestination.” Paul did not clearly explain predestination in his epistles because it would take a more mature person to understand it, and those of less understanding will surely not accept it. And that predestination is only for those who will benefit it.

Now, as science advance, we come to understand that Free Will does not really exist. The mind is not really separate from the physical chemistry of our brain. All these things do contribute to make us conclude that we are actually living in a ”deterministic” world. Understanding them would consequently make us easier to justify the truth of predestination.

Predestination implies that all our actions, wills, and thoughts are all given of God. That in reality, only God is the active mover of all things. In addition to the presentation of Apostle Paul of Predestination, the Old Testament said that we die when we see God’s face. Seeing God’s face means knowing Him, and we die because we come to realize that we are actually powerless. The more we try to understand omniscience and omnipotence of God, the more we realize that our free will, and the mind that we presumed coming out from our power does not really exist. And thus it mean that God is actually the one responsible why you are against Him. Having these understanding, I do not condemn you of such act, and does not accuse God of any wrongdoing either. To my understanding we are just clay vessels formed into being by God. God controls me for being given such understanding, and you, being given a very doubting heart, are also under God’s control. We are both under God’s control, and no way could we be against the very nature that God has given us. That, again, is why the saints are saved as ”chosen,” through grace, not because of our works.

My understanding is that you are just speaking out of ignorance of the godhead. One thing, it is necessary for us to experience even the evil things for our learning, yet, as the Bible said, “all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose.” As you can see, we have different knowledge about godhead. You are expecting that all should be saved, while I believe that only the chosen will be saved.

Even when God spoke of His reason of choosing Israel, God did not choose Israel because they were good. The same is the reason of God in choosing the Gentiles of today. It still is because of predestination. Nothing about you or me being good or evil, better or worst. We are just but clay shaped by the potter. And for the clay to complain to the potter is ridiculous. Even as I said, it is God who even made you to be against Him; because only God who makes all things into being.

You might say that it is useless for God to create a being such as atheists, pagans, and ignorant Christians. But actually, having understood about them, gave me a nature not to envy others, nor pride of myself. These very evils we see, were all part of the knowledge for us to attain true peace. As you can see, the very Bible itself had portrayed God as evil, the Bible did not hide it. It is there for you to read. But if you really understand also that ALL, good and evil, visible and invisible, were all created by God, you would have understood the godhead. And you, as mere dust, would learn to appreciate God’s grace.

If you think that the clay do have a real say unto the potter, you have not yet understood the very nature of human beings, and of the godhead. If you think that a computer can be against its inventor, then we do have a big difference in knowledge and understanding.

Men are born in an earthly image before he comes to a heavenly image, as the Bible said. And earthly image is not in the image of God, and some of us still possess such image. So, I think you also misunderstood that not all men are in the image of God. The likeness image we have with God is of having the same wisdom. You think different from me, thus it makes us different of each other.

As I said, we are just clay formed with amazing qualities than a computer. We, without mercy, kill turkey for our good purposes, how much more of God doing His good purposes on His own creation? The plain truth is that we are like computer that has nothing to do, or power to influence, the inventor. As I said, it is even God who made you to doubt Him.

I am still waiting for your answers regarding your belief about the mind and the body. In any case, I hope you realize too that the mind is not separate, nor distinct, to the brain chemistry. And that man does not actually have a free will.

Jobar

7thangel, I've always thought that the potter & clay metaphor was invincibly deterministic. After all, a real potter chooses his clay, waters and works it according to his own desire, shapes it as precisely as his own skill can manage, and fires it to the degree and time he wishes. The clay has no say at all. Indeed, comparing any living thing to clay in this manner seems kind of dumb; clay does not move and grow, after all.

If your god shapes us like a potter, then either we are precisely what god wants (presuming he is omnipotent); or else god makes mistakes, and we are not the perfect creation he envisioned. Which is it, do you think?

Did god want us to be so ready to murder?

And if we are created in his image- does our willingness to kill reflect our creator's?

Ice

I'm getting confused here, 7thangel. Does this mean that I am not responsible for my actions?

Stew

I think an arguement can even be made that the terms atheist, or atheistic, and theist, or theistic, are not mutually exclusive.

One who believes in the Christian god but not in the classic Greek gods could be described as both thestic (regarding the former) and atheistic (regarding the latter) simultaneously.

Viewed in this light, the definition of "atheistic" would resemble the antitheses of theistic; ie. (and simply put) one who lacks belief.


Edit:

New User?

New?

Postally Challenged perhaps, but new...??

7thangel

Yes, deterministic indeed! The clay-potter relationship was mentioned of Paul when he was explaining predestination. And as we can see from the story of Jacob and Esau, Paul is explaining that God is the one who chooses the saved by predetermination.

No, God did not make mistake at all. God is admitting himself responsible of the existence of evil, as what Isaiah 45:7 stated. And when evil came to Job, though it was actually done by Satan, he said, "the Lord giveth and taketh away." Job points to God as responsible of what had happened unto him. Also, it is God who sanctifies anyone who would be saved. That means it is just a matter of God's choice who would be good or remain bad.

You are misunderstanding the image we have of God, which I have explained in my respond to David. The truth is that we are evil when we were born. You should note that Adam only became in the image of God "after" eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It is a message that even in the very beginning, we are evil, being in an earthly image. But it does not mean that God have such image.

A murderer, stealer, liar, etc., is surely not in the image of God. And some are just like that.

David M. Payne

Hi Stew, welcome to the Sec-Web. Most theists are really atheists as far as the existence of all the possible Gods are concerned, as you point out. And many of them have trouble understanding that we can have simple non-belief in their God (Atheism) without having to have to believe in other beliefs such as communism. FS's favorite boogeyman is that all atheists are communists or are responsible for the actions of communists. He can't grasp that atheism is just the non-belief of God, period. I do understand his problem to some degree, a theist by definition has a lot of baggage to go with his/her theism, namely some sort of religious beliefs and a holy book to follow. We don’t do that, we are a diverse lot as far as basic social beliefs are concerned.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still suck them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!"

David M. Payne

Hi 7th. Well this is starting to wander off track a little, into predestination and whither we have free will or not. I don't believe in the theistic concept of God, though I do hold out the possibility of the existence of some being we might see as a God being involved in our creation, as I ruminated on here some time ago.

I would be interested in learning just what you think is the Godhead, as it appears that you, like so many other theists here may have your own religion going.

As for this; "God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still suck them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!" I think you attach more to it than it deserves, it's just my signature statement, not some deep philosophy to ponder. All it means is that if one frees their mind from the slavery of theism, their body will also become free from the tasks so often involved in religious beliefs, like going to church, sexual abstinence, dietary restrictions etc.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still suck them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!"

7thangel

I don't think I am off the topic, though I sense my lack of explanation to get to my point of "acquitting" God of mass murder. Nevertheless, if you do not believe about determinism and non-existence of free will, I guess it would not matter.

I am in the process of making compilations of what I believe.

Well, certainly, some will surely be mistaken like me. Thanks for the clarification though.