David M. Payne

Is God the biggest mass murderer of all time?

In the year 2000 there were about one billion people (912.3 million) who were atheist, agnostic or nonreligious. (according to Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year.) While that is the third largest group in the world after Christians and Muslims, A casual reading in the media might lead one to think we’re all but nonexistent. As one of this group, (strong agnostic) it’s with some measure of sad irony that I watch the outpouring of grief and anger by many religious denominations over the WTC and Pentagon bombings on 9-11-01. We hear the anguished denunciations that the Islamic fundamentalist terrorists, fearless of death, don’t represent the “true Islamic religion”. Really.
Though there are examples of good moral teachings to be found in all religious books, there are also teachings found in them that can lead right to the acts perpetrated on us by the Osama Bin Laden’s, the neo-nazi Christian right, and the other fundamentalist followers of the Abrahamic religions, be they Christian, Muslim or Jew.
Religious scholars often point to the “free will” argument, to explain away this murderous and barbaric behavior by religious zealots. So lets look at one disturbing example of God’s, not man’s, behavior, the great flood and Noah’s ark. (Geneses 6-9) God drowns everyone but Noah and his family for their “corruption”. OK, what sin and corruption did the babies and little children of these people, or for that matter the animals on this planet, commit? None. I guess they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, right? Is mass murder the only answer an omnipotent God had for this sinful behavior? In our time this would be called genocide, the first recorded instance I believe. But for the true believer it is the work of a “just” and “merciful” God? Not in my book.

Of course there are many who would interpret God’s actions differently, and that begs the point of this intellectual exercise. One can interpret the holy books any way one wants to, because there will be no intervention coming directly from God on this, will there? There hasn’t been any direct intervention in man’s behavior in over two thousand years, has there? As long as there’s no direct action from God to prevent those that seek to take religion down the path of madness, death and destruction, we will continue to suffer from this barbaric behavior. Sooner or later the worst of these groups will possess weapons of mass destruction, and they’ll use them in the name of God. Genocide was good enough for God to use against those guilty of “corruption”, following his example should be OK for the zealots, right? Religious warfare is, after all, as old as recorded history, still ongoing, and apparently endless.
Humanity, not a mythical God, is in control of this planet and its resources. Isn’t it time to put the religious fables away and pursue our evolutionary path into the future? Humanity must use logic, reason and the rule of manmade laws to craft our future, not religious teachings that can be interpreted any way those in power want to interpret them.

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: David Payne ]

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[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: David M. Payne ]</p>

Spirit Branded

DP
In the year 2000 there were about one billion people (912.3 million) who were atheist, agnostic or nonreligious. (according to Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year.) While that is the third largest group in the world after Christians and Muslims.

A casual reading in the media might lead one to think we’re all but nonexistent.

SB
I find the media to be full of secular humanism and very little real theology.

DP
As one of this group, (strong agnostic) it’s with some measure of sad irony that I watch the outpouring of grief and anger by many religious denominations over the WTC and Pentagon bombings on 9-11-01.

SB
So you are questioning the sincerity of genuine religious adherents? Why?

DP
We hear the anguished denunciations that the Islamic fundamentalist terrorists, fearless of death, don’t represent the “true Islamic religion”. Really.

SB
Yes Really. The vast majority of Muslim clerics that proclaim the peacefulness of Islam. Though a Christian myself I noted with pleasure the statement by the leading Islam cleric in my country that Bin Laden has no religious legitmacy in the eyes of the overwhelming majority of Muslims.

DP
Though there are examples of good moral teachings to be found in all religious books, there are also teachings found in them that can lead right to the acts perpetrated on us by the Osama Bin Laden’s, the neo-nazi Christian right, and the other fundamentalist followers of the Abrahamic religions, be they Christian, Muslim or Jew.

SB
So what? Medieval understandings of scripture were abandoned right back then ... in the enlightenment that followed the medieval era. Why resurrect long dead understandings (unless you are a terrorist which I do not for one moment suggest is the case).

DP
Religious scholars often point to the “free will” argument, to explain away this murderous and barbaric behavior by religious zealots.

SB
I see zealotry as just that .. excessive zeal attributable to fanatical minorities .. no attempt to generalise should flow from the existence of a tiny minority of madmen.

DP
So lets look at one disturbing example of God’s, not man’s, behavior, the great flood and Noah’s ark. (Geneses 6-9) God drowns everyone but Noah and his family for their “corruption”.

SB
So you rule out the likelihood that the flood was a natural event and that the people of Israelf wrongly attributed it to God's anger. It sounds like your Bible education has derived from religious fundamentalism of the literalist kind, but bible belt crackpots in America are hardly representative of Christianity at large.

DP
OK, what sin and corruption did the babies and little children of these people, or for that matter the animals on this planet, commit? None.

SB
How do you know ... one way or the other? Not that I believe the flood is in any way related.

DP
I guess they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, right?

SB
Wrong. I guess they were ill informed about the real loving nature of God.

DP
Is mass murder the only answer an omnipotent God had for this sinful behavior?

SB
God can not sin.

DP
In our time this would be called genocide, the first recorded instance I believe.

SB
God was highly unlikely to be more responsible for the flood than any other natural disaster. What makes you think that physical life comes with guarantees against risk?

DP
But for the true believer it is the work of a “just” and “merciful” God?

SB
No

DP
Not in my book.

SB
Apparently you have a fundamentalist emotional investment in believing the worst about God.

DP
Of course there are many who would interpret God’s actions differently, and that begs the point of this intellectual exercise.

SB
Thank you for recognising other rational possibilities, and yes other options would undermine your "intellectual" predisposition to think the worst of God.

DP
One can interpret the holy books any way one wants to, because there will be no intervention coming directly from God on this, will there?

SB
Interpretation of scripture has been the work of Christian scholars in the mainstream Churches for 2000 years, and who do you suppose inspires that?
In my belief the inspiration for truth is from God.

DP
There hasn’t been any direct intervention in man’s behavior in over two thousand years, has there?

SB
So there have been no Christians influenced by Christ and the Holy Spirit for 2000 years? What more direct intervention could there be than the changed hearts and minds of mankind over all that time in every moment of daily life ... if one takes Christ and his power seriously.

DP
As long as there’s no direct action from God to prevent those that seek to take religion down the path of madness, death and destruction, we will continue to suffer from this barbaric behavior.

SB
So the fact that tiny fanatical minorities are restrained by the main majority escapes you. How many suicide bombers have you seen in ordinary Churches, Synagogues or Mosques? Hardly any.

DP
Sooner or later the worst of these groups will possess weapons of mass destruction, and they’ll use them in the name of God.

SB
Tiny groups of fanatics will always seek weapons of destruction ... especially when theists and non-theists are complacent. When religion is not applied peacefully the fanatics will apply perversion of religions in a warklike manner. It is perversion of religion, not religion itself that causes the problems.

DP
Genocide was good enough for God to use against those guilty of “corruption”, following his example should be OK for the zealots, right?

SB
Wrong.

DP
Religious warfare is, after all, as old as recorded history, still ongoing, and apparently endless.

SB
Perverting religion for political and economic and power seeking purposes throughout history would be a more accurate statement, but that says nothing about the majority who practice their religion peacefully and sincerely.

DP
Humanity, not a mythical God, is in control of this planet and its resources.

SB
Like many humanists you present opinions as fact with no support for your claim. Do you have absolute scientific proof that God is a myth. I want to see it. I am surprised that an "agnostic" would make such bold assertions.

DP
Isn’t it time to put the religious fables away and pursue our evolutionary path into the future?

SB
Evolution could leave us red in tooth and claw, savages with no ability to control our immediate selfish instincts for the greater good.

DP
Humanity must use logic, reason and the rule of manmade laws to craft our future, not religious teachings that can be interpreted any way those in power want to interpret them.

SB
Without well founded ethical systems humankind might well resort to being a disorganised rabble. Come to think of it isn't that why the richest are getting richer and the poorest are getting poorer?

Blessings and Peace

Spirit Branded

Pandora

One thing I really hate about religious people is that they are so convinced that we need a sky fairy in order to have ethics.

When will they learn that religion is just a way of presenting a system of laws, morals and ethics all wrapped up in a nice big package of lies, threats and fantasy. Religion is a form of suppression and brain washing.

We are not “special”, we are animals like any other on this planet – the difference being that we are advanced enough to be capable of manipulating our environment rather than being manipulated by it.

What level of vanity and over inflated ego do you have to believe that you are so special? Or to believe that you are more than material? Or to believe that you will live forever? Or to believe that a deity if he existed would even consider your existence?

Are you so insecure and full of fear that you can’t live your life without believing that there is someone watching over you, that this person loves you unconditionally and that this person wants you to waste your time and money worshipping him?

Religion is a comfort blanket for adults. It’s time we all grew up. There is no God, there never was a Christ – you’ve all been conned, it’s all a pack of lies.

We have the earth with it’s resources, we have knowledge and science to help us use them, we have medicines and trained doctors to help fight diseases, we have the intellectual and emotional capacity to make this world a happier place for humanity.

With all the problems in the world today – poverty, disease, hunger, thirst… I think it appalling how much time and money is wasted on religion.

Why build a church when you could build a hospital?

Thor Q. Mada

Dear Spirit Branded,

I have no time to reply to your boring arguments, just one thing, you want scientific proof that there is no god?? How about giving proof that there is one??
For evrything happening on the world, inclusive your existance, the most unlikely explanation is precisely the existance of god!!

Poor , poor.

Spirit Branded

Tor Q Mada or whatever your name is ... I always find that insults are the best indicator of a lost argument and you have substituted insults for substance.

I see no reason to reply to someone who is blatantly rude.

Ergo you have lost

Your loss not mine

Blessings and Peace

Spirit Branded

Spirit Branded

Pandora

You are off topic. If you will make your diatribe into a new thread I will consider responding ... otherwise please do not be so rude as to intrude your false opinions into a discussion where it is entirely inappopriate.

Like so many atheists you assert opinions as facts without stopping to bother to give any support.

That is not very impressive when you have only reason to rely upon and fail to use it. But I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt if you apologise for intruding.

Blessings and Peace

Spirit Branded

phlebas

This is hilarious coming from a Christian.

Since this is a non-theist board, who is the one who is really intruding? And who is the one throwing the insults?

We're all tired of empty assertions -- we're probably not going to greet a new retelling of those assertions with a big smile and a happy little dance. If you have some evidence to support those assertions, please cough it up.

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: phlebas ]</p>

Jack the Bodiless

Spirit Branded:
Compare with:
Need I say more?

Pandora

B]You are off topic. If you will make your diatribe into a new thread I will consider responding ... otherwise please do not be so rude as to intrude your false opinions into a discussion where it is entirely inappopriate. [/B][/B]

Reading through your reply to DP, I fail to see how your post is any more off topic than mine.

Quotes:
“I guess they were ill informed about the real loving nature of God.”

“God can not sin.”

“In my belief the inspiration for truth is from God.”

“So there have been no Christians influenced by Christ and the Holy Spirit for 2000 years? What more direct intervention could there be than the changed hearts and minds of mankind over all that time in every moment of daily life ... if one takes Christ and his power seriously.”

“Like many humanists you present opinions as fact with no support for your claim. Do you have absolute scientific proof that God is a myth. I want to see it. I am surprised that an "agnostic" would make such bold assertions.”

Without well founded ethical systems humankind might well resort to being a disorganised rabble”

My post was merely a reply to your opinions. We could argue for hours about whether yours are false or not. However, it is a fact that they are boring, old and written by someone who obviously feels himself to be infinitely superior to other people on this board.

Like so many atheists you assert opinions as facts without stopping to bother to give any support.

Most of what I wrote does not need to be backed up with facts – it’s called basic common sense.

That is not very impressive when you have only reason to rely upon and fail to use it. But I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt if you apologise for intruding.

I find it incredible that you have the nerve to come here to a secular board as a visitor, trot out the usual Xtian rubbish, insult peoples opinions and intellect and then call me rude, tell me that I am intruding, and ask me to apologise for posting on a board that I consider my home.
Just to be on topic – as a fictional character God qualifies as the biggest mass murderer in history. If we’re talking about reality, Stalin’s probably hot favourite.

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Pandora ]</p>

GunnerJ

Oxymoron of the year! BTW, you might brush up on the Burden of Proof: we've never observed anyone BUT humans controling this planet's resources, and therefore, those who speculate a Daddy in the Sky controling things bear it.