Anti-Creedance Front

Okay, I was browsing through that other topic about pagan influence in Christianity, and I think some of the responses are really way too long winded, on either side. I also didn't see anything even relating to pagan pantheons, traditions, etc. So, with this thread, I ask that you keep it short and to the point, or at least bullet and categorize some of your huge replies.

From my research, I have found that all the Abrahamic religions (not just Christianity) have borrowed elements from: Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, Mesopotamia (Sumer, Babylon, Assyria, and especially Canaan), as well as some possible Egyptian influences. I have been looking for worthwhile people to talk to about this for some time. Most don't want to bother with it, while some don't even seem to understand it. Here is my research so far on the origin of Satan, this is just one of many things I've looked into.

Beelzebub = Baal-Zebub = Lord of the Flies = Baal-Zebul = Prince Baal
<a href="http://www.users.qwest.net/~rjwsr/devbio/" target="_blank">http://www.users.qwest.net/~rjwsr/devbio/</a>

God of Philistine City Ekron, mentioned in 2 Kings 1:2-16
YHVH condemns Ahaziah for consulting with a Philistine rather than Jewish god
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Asmodeus, prince of revengeful demons, Jews identify him with eldest son of Lilith
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Abaddon (Apollyon the Destroyer) ruled in Sheol or the Pit, which was residing place for the dead
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Satan/Lucifer, combined to make one Devil with two names
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not a single OT demon ruled over Hell as Christians describe
nor had they any power to punish people after death
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Adam attempted to force Lilith into submissive sex position, she refused, Adam forced her to depart
Lilith (Lilitu) laid with Sama'el (king of all demons) and gave birth to Asmodeus and others
Lilith considered mother of succubus and incubus
Jews believed she killed newborn babies
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NT claims God is source of all good
OT Jews did not believe in eternal reward or punishment after death
OT Jews believed dead resided in the Pit/Underworld/Sheol - place of residence for dead
Pharisees created concept of Heaven and Hell (St. Paul was member)
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Lucifer only mentioned once in OT, Satan only mentioned twice
KJV OT does not mention "demon" at all
KJV largely based on St. Jerome's work (Eusebius Hieronymous)
Lucifer of OT was evil human king cast into already existing Hell
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Only place where Lucifer is mentioned in Bible:
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou has said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the
congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought
down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made
the earth tremble, that did shake kingdoms; that made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the
house of his prisoners?
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there was a Christian bishop of Cagliari in Sardinia named Lucifer in the 4th or 5th century, slightly before the emergence of St. Jerome as
a theologian
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Devil's punishment for losing first war with God according to Christian tradition: ability to assume any shape or form, possess body/mind of humans,
power to cause sickness, power to tempt humans into sin so he can claim their souls

[ September 09, 2002: Message edited by: Anti-Creedance Front ]</p>

cloudyphiz

here's an article you might find worth reading:

<a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~robwir/devbio.html" target="_blank">the devil's biography</a>

-gary

CX

Hmmm...can you think of a dominant religious system in the history of mankind that didn't borrow? What exactly is the discussion you're looking for? That Xianity borrowed is not a terribly earth-shattering revelation since it obviously borrowed heavily from Judaism. What issue are you trying to address?

Perhaps we can come at it another way and, say, outline the most significant cases of borrowing from outside the Hebrew mythos and go from there. In sense there are really 3 positions related to this question: 1)Xianity is totally original and borrowed nothing; 2)Xianity is partly original, but borrows from surrounding traditions; 3)Xianity is totally unoriginal and borrowed every element from somewhere else. Pick a position and defend it with specific examples and then we'll have a good discussion going.

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: CX ]</p>

Amen-Moses

Which is just a working link to the same thing he/she linked to! (and maybe even wrote?)

Amen-Moses

Anti-Creedance Front

I pick door number 3, Johnny! Yes, a lot of what was in those notes was taken from that page, but not all of it. Besides, it's easier to read notes than the whole thing. Most people are too lazy to do that anyway. I don't have time to post anything right now, since I have college, but I'll be back later on.

Anti-Creedance Front

The only problem with this subject is that you need people well versed in it, or you have to explain hours of information to them about it. It's not really a simple thing. For now, I'm going to try the most cut-down summary I can.
Zoroastrianism was the first "dualist" religion
Zarathustra (Zoroaster) was supposedly the first man to claim "savior" status.
Zoroastrian mythology runs very parallel to Christian mythology. There's YHVH (Ahura Mazda), Satan (Angra Mainyu), angels, demons, and a heaven and hell.
Zarathustra exalted Ahura Mazda, from the Indo-Persian pantheon, over all other gods.
Spenta Mainyu and Angra Mainyu are said to be Ahura Mazda's sons.
However, we have some "trinity" juxtaposition here (who else is confused by this father, son, holy spirit stuff?), because Angra Mainyu seems to disappear out of the picture after he is mentioned. Ahura Mazda then takes his place for what seems to be the rest of the scripture. Angra Mainyu is referred to be his "other" name, Ahriman.
Now, here is where Zoroastrianism and Mithraism intersect. Mithraism was given birth by Zoroastrianism supposedly.
Mithra was Ahura Mazda's messenger to man, one of the amesha spentas (angels).
Apparently he gained a cult of his own, and they began to spread out from Persia.
But it seems that it did not start out proselytizing, rather, it was picked up by Roman soldiers stationed in Persia.
Mithraism was commonly known as a patriarchal (NO women allowed) military cult.
It also shares many parallels with Christianity, for short example, a bread and wine ritual meal, baptism in water, the sun behind Mithraic figures' heads (halos... like the Roman word for sun, helios!)
Mithraism went on to spread all throughout Europe, and eventually was declared the state cult of Rome. They called Mithra Sol Invictus (The Unconquerable Sun).
Scholars say if Christianity hadn't actively fought Mithraism off, we would have all been Mithraists right now. This statement holds a lot of fact. It was huge.
Christians are documented as actively seeking out and destroying Mithraeums, and many churches are built over them, INCLUDING ST. PETER'S IN THE VATICAN.
I am not saying that Mithraism became Christianity. But it sure as hell contributed a lot to it's ritual practice and beliefs. However, I still think, in all of this, that there might be a plausable argument for Christianity coming completely from another religion. However, with the documentation of Jesus' visits to sites in Israel, I must say I'm skeptical about it. But these are some eerie facts to know. If you want to learn more about these two, check out <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/5676" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/5676</a>
I would be overjoyed if someone here knows a lot about, or has researched the parallels of this stuff to mainstream religion. If you have, speak up!