MadKally

Bookman said: Most of the theists that I know (or at least the ones who's beliefs I understand well) are very liberal Christians at best (with a smattering of Buddhists, Pagans, and fluffy New Agers thrown in for good measure). It's probably telling that I think of fundamentalists as the exception and not the rule when I consider believers.

sock puppet: Lucky you!

and Bookman says this:The relevant question (and the one that you ask later) is the one I posted earlier -- how come some of us can shake the belief and others can't?

sock puppet says:

DUH!

MadKally

sock puppet says: KOY RULES!

Seeker196

"the notion that a fundamental physiological function of the brain is being manipulated or "fooled" into functioning in a manner that it shouldn't be used for."

This reminds me of something...has anyone heard of the neurologist who claims to be able to give people "God-experiences" via electromagnetic stimulation?

Is he full of it or what?

Koyaanisqatsi

Perhaps not, Seeker.

We have a "pleasure" center in our brains. Perhaps we also have an "alternate reality parameter" center that's normally linked to dreaming that charlatans like cult leaders have been unwittingly manipulating and just implanting the idea that it's a "God experience;" like triggering some form of audio/visual Rorschach blotter to go off in our brains that we can't really interpret and haven't truly explored and then having the snake-oil salesman tell you it's a mystical "god experience?"

It would certainly explain why some cult members swear so vociferously that they've had visions and/or "revelations" of god, as well as explain the oft-repeated assertion that god chooses some to reveal his "message" too.

Perhaps the indoctrination as children Bookman was talking about serves a dual purpose; implanting the cult ideas while at the same time blurring the "reality discernment parameters" settings of some as yet unknown section of the brain that normally functions as a sort of fantasy/reality gyroscope of some form, keeping the psyche centered properly while in "default" reality as opposed to "dream" reality?

We wake up and we "know" where we are every morning, so that "object permanence" has to be maintained in some manner somewhere. Perhaps this same "reality barometer" is what triggers drug induced hallucinations as well?

Food for thought.

(edited for lysdexia - Koy)

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

cricket

Check out VS Ramachandran's Phantoms in the Brain for a look at the religious grandiosity of some sufferers of temporal lobe epilepsy. Aside from these patients, for religious types in general, Ramachandran suggests that religious fervor may be controlled by mechanisms in the temporal lobes. That it's like the disregulation that occurs in temporal lobe epilepsy, but to a lesser degree (and completely without symptoms of epilepsy). He suggests this as a possibility; a common brain-based cause for peoples' inexplicable certainty of their religious convictions.

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: cricket ]</p>

Mad Kally

and

Have you ever talked to people who have had lots of LSD experiences? Some of them knew all the secrets of the universe with certainty while they were high. (not necessarily god trips) Only problem is, they forgot exactly what it was they were so sure of when they came down.. Maybe we should all drop some acid or have our brains electromagnetically stimulated
at the same time and take notes as to what we think reality may or may not be. It would be an interesting study on hallucinations and delusions that originate in the minds of atheists vs theists, if nothing else..

Amos

That is exactly what makes it such dangerous trickery and charismatic evangelists have learned to trigger a "ligh flash" in this "pleasure centre." A good shot of this will sent them jumping for joy and later souring trough midheaven for the rest of their days while burning scriptures to stay aloft to let them crash in the end and die anyway. It is called "the cup of Gods anger" in Rev. is is just opposite to the wedding of Cana parable.

The technique is old and was called the "parting of the waters" when Moses led the children of Israel into the promised land where they wandered and finally died nonetheless.

emphryio

A question. Can schizophrenia be diagnosed through blood tests etc, in showing a chemical inbalance? Or is it only diagnosable through observing the behaviour of the person?
Reason I ask is, a certain portion of christians, (usually the hardcore kind), talk about literally "feeling the presence of god". I wonder if this is a mild form of schizophrenia or maybe some other pyschosis. And if it could actually be proven that a segment of the christian population, (or whatever particular religion the person had grasped onto), (mostly the hardcore kind), were actually suffering from schizophrenia or some other mental instablity.

So to restate: Can it be diagnosed in some way other than observation of behaviour?

BTW, I personally don't think all christians are pyschotic, most are simply scared into stupidity.

Mad Kally

Positron emission tomography <a href="http://www.bartleby.com/65/pe/PETscan.html" target="_blank"> (PET scan) </a>

Amos

This is not meant to serve as an apology but I agree that not all self proclaimed Christians are psychotic. Some are 'good' people -- which really is not a good thing because Jesus was counted among the wicked.

They do more than feel the presence of God and are actually driven by this flash of light that left its mark in their conscious mind. In the bible it is juxtaposed with a beatific vision and goes something like this: "No one shall see the face of God and live" while "when we meet God face to face all shall be made clear."