Koyaanisqatsi

I wasn't quite sure where to post this one.

Are there any psychologists in the house? I'm interested in a serious deconstruction of the psychosis of theism.

Although our mental institutions would be packed to overflowing, why isn't belief in a god or gods considered a clinical disorder and treated accordingly? Tradition? Majority rule? By design?

It is clearly not harmless. It has caused tremendous and prolonged social divisiveness, unrest and bloodshed for centuries, up to modern times (WTC).

Your thoughts?

moon

My first thought is that you are an idiot.

There are plenty of sane theists, many of whom are much more intelligent, creative, caring and warm-hearted than you are.

I would suggest you try doing something more constructive than trying to demonize those you disagree with.

Koyaanisqatsi

Well, great. We have our first case study.

Mad Kally

There are plenty more insane theists! I worked in a mental hospital with dangerous schizophrenics. The majority of them have religious hallucinations and/or delusions. Depending of course on what ever their favorite god/cult is..

Doubting Thomas who is gone temporarily due to back surgery would certainly back me up on that! He worked with mentally ill patients in a prison. Same religious crap.

The sad part is that so many insane theists are allowed to walk around free! They are allowed to infect others with their dangerous superstitious bullshit.

moon

So, it is your contention that most theists are crazy!? That, my dear, is crazy.
Where does all of this venom come from? Most of the people I know are theists, and they most of them are not insane. In fact, most of them are nice people, who try to do something with their lives.

Furthermore, I find the implication that theists should not be allowed to walk around free a bit scary.

echidna

Not doubting for a second that there are plenty of loopies amongst the ranks of the theistic, I don’t think that a-theism is a guarantee of mental health either.

One would need to define the term "mentally unhealthy" before one declared that all theists are mentally unhealthy.

"Here is my reasoning. But you still disagree with me, so you must be mentally ill."

My father was a member of Keston College, a European Group responsible for trying to publicise the plight of those behind the Iron Curtain who were subject to religious persecution. Communism was and is notorious for the widespread usage of psychiatric hospitals and immoral treatment of those who it disagreed with.

Official reports would cite "he is obviously not cured since he continues to pray".

I suppose there will always be those who think their continued incarceration was a good thing.

Who would I prefer to be loose on the streets ? Tough call.

Koyaanisqatsi

Moon--

What do you call people that irrationally believe a mystical fairy god king magically blinked everything into existence? Or people who truly believe that such a fictional creature trifurcated into flesh in order to kill himself as a sacrifice to himself in order to save mankind from himself for disobeying him in the first place? Or worse, what do you call "moderate" people who don't really believe any of the "nasty stuff," but still irrationally believe that "something" is there that created them and will greet them in a place called heaven when they die?

Regardless, this thread's topic is to the psychology involved, so unless you have something to say about that, we'll take it as read that your opinion is the theists you know are not "insane," yes?

And, just for clarity's sake, I am not accusing anyone of being insane in the clinical sense, though the irrational nature of the belief system certainly qualifies, in my lay opinion, as a psychosis, which is why the question was, primarily, to any psychologists who might be here and/or to those with clincial experience (such as Mad Kally).

So, to reiterate, the question is to whether or not theism is a psychosis and if so, why isn't it clinically addressed?

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

Vorkosigan

Most people are theists. Are they all suffering from a psychosis? Why don't you look up a clinical definition of psychosis, and see if theism fits?

Michael

Seeker196

I did.

Symptoms:
-Delusions of persecution
-Delusions of grandeur (i.e. you're going to be saved while millions go to Hell)
-Belief in being watched by invisible evil supernatural entities/entity.
-Auditory hallucination: Jesus spoke to me in my heart
-Disorganized Speech: a) cognitive slippage: this fits Christian apologists to a t
-"the major diagnostic feature of delusional disorder is persistent delusion, or belief that is contrary to reality, in the absence of the other characteristics of schizophrenia."(pg. 564) "...without any evidence for this belief." "Not the result of an organic factor such as brain seizures or any severe psychotic disorder." (p. 565)

According to the defintions found in Abnormal Psychology: An Integrative Approach, Barlow & Durand, 1995, I would categorize Christians not as psychotic or schizophrenic, but as having the milder Delusional Disorder(DSM-IV), unless they exhibit other symptoms.

NOTE: those with access to it will find that DSM-IV adds the ridiculous qualifier that beliefs 'held by the majority of society' are not to be considered delusions...however, it does not offere any support for this stance in cases where a belief fits all the other qualifications for being a delusion.

Vorkosigan

None of these fit. Most theists I know do not have delusions of persecution or grandeur in any clinical sense. "Jesus spoke to me in my heart" is not an auditory delusion, but a way of speaking about a feeling.

Persistent delusion is different from religious belief, as any psychologist could tell you. The APA, for example, recognizes that magical thinking may be normal in many cultures. Beliefs shared by one's social group are not considered delusional, by definition.

Also, a common symptom is hallucinations. People who hallucinate without chemicals are extremely rare.

In short, there is no basis for Koy's claim that theism is a psychosis, much less that it ought to be addressed clinically.

Michael