Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DarkBronzePlant · 11-24-2002, 11:54 AM

My 2 cents on this subject that it is similar to the Jesus subject. There probably was a crazy guy named Noah who claimed to hear god telling him to build a big boat. And maybe he did actually try building ones. Centuries later, his delusions became fact and were written into the bible.

Leigh · 11-24-2002, 12:20 PM

quote per Frivolous

'Animals in times of distress can alter their normal living habits to cope with changes in environment.'

This is true - but the most common response to environmental change is migration. In times of global cooling, there is a shift to warmer latitudes; and in times of global warming the reverse. Because species vary in what ranges of heat and cold they can tolerate, the amount of shift varies between species. This rather begs the question, how could creatures adapted to tropical and sub-tropical environments( such as most primates, humans being a notable exception) share the same environment as a creature adapted to polar weather (eg penguins, Arctic foxes)? It's hard enough for modern zoos to provide environments, and they have more space and technology than Noah would have had.

Kosh · 11-24-2002, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Leigh:
quote per Frivolous

'Animals in times of distress can alter their normal living habits to cope with changes in environment.'

This is true - but the most common response to environmental change is migration. In times of global cooling, there is a shift to warmer latitudes; and in times of global warming the reverse. Because species vary in what ranges of heat and cold they can tolerate, the amount of shift varies between species. This rather begs the question, how could creatures adapted to tropical and sub-tropical environments( such as most primates, humans being a notable exception) share the same environment as a creature adapted to polar weather (eg penguins, Arctic foxes)? It's hard enough for modern zoos to provide environments, and they have more space and technology than Noah would have had.

Hmmm. Perhaps this explains why we can't find Noahs Ark in the "mountains of ararat", since it was used by the Koala's for their migration. Clever critters, those cuddly little bears!

<Paul Hogan>
"Australia - home of Noah's Ark"
</Paul Hogan>

Defiant Heretic · 11-24-2002, 03:33 PM

You left one thing out, Apostate.
The freshwater from the rain would have mixed with the saltwater from the oceans, diluting the saltwater and increasing the salinity of the freshwater, so neither saltwater or freshwater fish would be able to survive in an the new environment.

Very few species can survive in both saltwater and freshwater, therefore the ark would have needed to contain large tanks of water for all the fish that couldn't survive outside.

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Defiant Heretic ]

Defiant Heretic · 11-24-2002, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frivolous:
The recessive traits of Noah had nothing to do with gonorrhea. Sorry for the ambiguity. I'm saying that his recessive traits are what allowed the present diversity of cultures today, including the chinese and the egyptians. Because these races appeared after the flood, they have no record of the flood.

But they do have records of things that happened before the flood. They also have records of things that happened after the flood. But they seem to have forgotten to write about the end of the world in their histories.

And you still haven't answered how the humans managed to survive on the ark while they were infected with millions of diseases. (a conservative estimate)

Quote:

Their carefully preserved history is in what form? And who is to say that their history is truth.

I can't believe he doesn't see the irony in this statement.

Marduk · 11-24-2002, 03:49 PM

Has anyone yet pointed out the WEIGHT of all these animals on wooden boat????

PandaJoe · 11-24-2002, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Some deep sea sharks can grow very large, and their metabolism could have been slowed by a drop in temperature.

Quote:

Perhaps water exists in fissures, i agree. And also water expands when heated.

In the same post, folks.
Look, Frivolous, if you're going to make up a story to explain away all the problems, at least keep it consistent.

Proctors_Gambit · 11-24-2002, 06:09 PM

What is the point in arguing, when you are dealing with someone who can argue away logic with apparent interception by the divine.

No number of real world 'unsolvable' problems such as salinity, manure, special diets, sheer bulk etc. is going to change the mind of a person who at the end of the day can argue
"God made it so! Praise God!"

God may have done it by shrinking all the animals to the size of a pin head, freezing them in stasis so that they neither crap nor eat, altering the fish for the necessary period of time then changing them back, teleporting the animals around the globe etc.

Whatever inane solution a theist can come with might as well be true to him since in their opinion God can do anything.

See Matt 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Agree to disagree, that's all you can do.

-Gambit

Sojourner553 · 11-24-2002, 06:49 PM

Quote:

per Frivolous' post (no name given):

There are just two types of people who claim knowlege of god. Credulous fools and snakeoil salesmen.

Per Frivolous

Is this a fact? And where did you gain this information. It seems somewhat inaccurate to me.

Please be more careful attributing names (here none). By association it would appear I made it. I generally try to hold a respectful view towards liberal to moderate believers (and have been attacked by a minority of atheists on this board a few times for doing so).

It is only the literal (fundamentalist) members of a religion that I challenge strongly to look at some of the evidence around them rather than ONLY accepting something on faith.

Quote:

per Sojourner:

LOL. You mean “my” standards like “common sense”?
Per Frivilous:

My dear heated sojourner…

LOL means laughing out loud. Is that “heated” to you? Perhaps you are the one feeling “anger” and you are projecting this…

Quote:

per Sojourner:

You’re making it up. If you want to know the truth, why not go out and look: Observe what zoos have to do to keep penguins alive as one example.

Per Frivolous:

Provide water and fish i presume. The Ark may have had a platform for them to jump off into the water.

Why “presume”. Why not test to see if they could stand the temperature -- if you really want to know…

Quote:

per Sojourner:

I dare you to find a panda bear that can survive without eating bamboo, only found in China. Ever bothered to check out the facts on this?

Per Frivolous:

This is an unfair proposal. I suggest that maybe it would be more feasible to test a group of pandas to see if they can survive on a range of other food combinations.

But of course. It should not matter that you cannot “personally” perform the test. Read what others have said about it. There are two panda bears in the National Zoo in DC. Scientists cannot find any substitute for bamboo for their diet.

Quote:

per Frivolous:

Carbon dating cannot be proven and is based on extrapolations and presumptions that carbon 14 decays at a steady rate. But no one has observed it decaying for a long enough period of time to prove it.

Yeah. I guess we have to wait a few million years for that right. BTW: Do you believe the earth is only what is it about five thousand years old?

Quote:

per Sojourner:

BTW: I thought it was important to comment on some of the OTHER known superstitions in the OT. You realize where I am coming from. If there are some superstitions in the Bible, isn’t it even MORE important to check for the other claims as well.

Per Frivilous:

Yes it is important. But we must do this one step at a time to avoid confusion.

and,

I'm proposing that perhaps other records are inaccurate, and this proposal frees the OT version from being disproven by the fact that there are other records out there

I put these last two quotes together to demonstrate my point: That if the OT is a perfect divine document it should be completely free of errors. You do need to tackle them all. I do not understand why it would be “confusing” not to. Just perhaps a lot more difficult for you…

Sojourner

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]

Sojourner553 · 11-24-2002, 07:06 PM

Quote:

per Apostate:

So if you piled six of all the minimum number of species into the ark, they could all fit, granted that their average volume must be less than 1811 cc. However, that is not the only thing we must consider with regard to space...

Finally, the average space each animal takes on the ark must be (4.347e10 cubic cm) / (24 million animals) = 1811 cubic cm per animal. A cube of 1811 cubic cm is 12 cm along a side.

Excuse me, Apostate, but I am not used to metric like I should be:

I calculate 12 cm to be about a cube of 2.5 feet to a side,,,

Because you calculate VOLUMES as opposed to AREAS, are you not STACKING ANIMALS on top of each other???

I calculate about 18 animals (45/2/5) animals would have to bee stacked on top of each other on average.

Is there enough space to get to them,

Does it mean maybe it was all bugs on the top tier.

I would like to see a calculation to how much AREA not volume is taken up adding up the known volumes of animal species.

Quote:

per Apostate:

We are not counting the many extinct species that are found in fossils.

Some have proposed that dinosaurs were killed in the flood. Again, tis a curiousity that this wasn't considered important by biblical writers to have mentioned. Dinosaurs also weren't considered important enough for older pagan religions to mention. Nor are there ANY significant mention of them in any archeological or historical record (that could not apply to a hippopotumus or elephant.)

You would think they weren't around back then...maybe died out millions of years earlier or something...

Sojourner

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]

11-24-2002, 03:33 PM	#34
Defiant Heretic Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,288	You left one thing out, Apostate. The freshwater from the rain would have mixed with the saltwater from the oceans, diluting the saltwater and increasing the salinity of the freshwater, so neither saltwater or freshwater fish would be able to survive in an the new environment. Very few species can survive in both saltwater and freshwater, therefore the ark would have needed to contain large tanks of water for all the fish that couldn't survive outside. [ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Defiant Heretic ]</p>

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11-24-2002, 11:54 AM	#31
DarkBronzePlant Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: San Francisco, CA USA Posts: 3,568	My 2 cents on this subject that it is similar to the Jesus subject. There probably was a crazy guy named Noah who claimed to hear god telling him to build a big boat. And maybe he did actually try building ones. Centuries later, his delusions became fact and were written into the bible.

11-24-2002, 12:20 PM	#32
Leigh Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: England Posts: 27	quote per Frivolous 'Animals in times of distress can alter their normal living habits to cope with changes in environment.' This is true - but the most common response to environmental change is migration. In times of global cooling, there is a shift to warmer latitudes; and in times of global warming the reverse. Because species vary in what ranges of heat and cold they can tolerate, the amount of shift varies between species. This rather begs the question, how could creatures adapted to tropical and sub-tropical environments( such as most primates, humans being a notable exception) share the same environment as a creature adapted to polar weather (eg penguins, Arctic foxes)? It's hard enough for modern zoos to provide environments, and they have more space and technology than Noah would have had.

11-24-2002, 03:49 PM	#36
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	Has anyone yet pointed out the WEIGHT of all these animals on wooden boat????

11-24-2002, 06:09 PM	#38
Proctors_Gambit Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 372	What is the point in arguing, when you are dealing with someone who can argue away logic with apparent interception by the divine. No number of real world 'unsolvable' problems such as salinity, manure, special diets, sheer bulk etc. is going to change the mind of a person who at the end of the day can argue "God made it so! Praise God!" God may have done it by shrinking all the animals to the size of a pin head, freezing them in stasis so that they neither crap nor eat, altering the fish for the necessary period of time then changing them back, teleporting the animals around the globe etc. Whatever inane solution a theist can come with might as well be true to him since in their opinion God can do anything. See Matt 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Agree to disagree, that's all you can do. -Gambit

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