Jayhawker Soule

This equivalence seems damning under any definition of subjective atheistic morals, i.e., one would think that the word of god would do significantly better.

Vorkosigan

On a final note, I do not ultimately see where subjective atheistic morals yield any more clairity on the issue of the morality of slavery than does Christianity. However, that is a topic for another forum.

There are no "atheist morals." Atheists are just people who disbelieve in gods. This would include total skeptics such as myself, certain strains of Buddhism, almost all Confucians, people who think the universe is concious, and other points of view. What moral system would you say unites them all?

Michael

Bob K

Here is the basis of an human morality, a natural morality, a practical morality, for atheists and agnostics.

1. We are all born selfish (S).

Selfishness (S) is seeking to achieve desires and to maximize happiness.

2. We are initially personally selfish (PS). We want to achieve our desires and maximize our happiness, and we act without regard for the desires and happiness of other people.

Personal selfishness (PS) is seeking to achieve one’s desires and to maximize one’s happiness without regard for the desires and happiness of other people.

3. We become socially selfish (SS) when we learn that to achieve many if not most if not all of our desires we need the ready, willing and able cooperation of other people (we need other people) for which we must be ready, willing and able to cooperate with them—those other people—to negotiate and to achieve common desires.

Social selfishness (SS) is seeking to achieve one’s desires and to maximize one’s happiness by cooperating with other people to negotiate and to achieve common desires.

Civilization began when people realized that to achieve most of their desires and to maximize their happiness they need the ready, willing and able cooperation of other people for which they must be ready, willing and able to cooperate with those other people to negotiate and to achieve common desires.

And civilization is renewed in every generation when people realize that they need other people—that they need the ready, willing and able cooperation of other people for which they must be ready, willing and able to cooperate with those other people to negotiate and to achieve common desires.

There is thus a sequence of S->PS->SS wherein an individual (1) is born selfish/S, (2) is initially personally selfish/PS, and then, through practical experience, (3) learns to become socially selfish/SS.

S->PS->SS is an observable and predictable reality. It is a practical morality, natural morality, secular morality, wherein other people are needed but no gods are needed by the individual.

As Thomas Jefferson said, “The essence of the law is that no man should [be allowed to] injure another; all the rest [of the law] is commentary.”

Our legislated laws become our embodiments of S->PS->SS and serve as a practical morality.

A study of the Ten Commandments shows that although the first five are clearly denominational the last five are commonly found in legislated laws and are based upon S->PS->SS, no gods needed.

The Ten Commandments of the Judeo-Christian Religions

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Ex. 20: 3.
2. Thou shalt not make any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth; thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them. Ex. 20: 4., 5.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain. Ex. 20: 7.
4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour and do all thy works; but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God; in it thou shalt do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy stranger which is within thy gates. Ex. 20: 8-10.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. Ex. 20: 12.
6. Thou shalt not kill. Ex. 20: 13.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Ex. 20: 14.
8. Thou shalt not steal. Ex. 20: 15.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. Ex. 20: 16.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house; thou salt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor’s. Ex. 20: 17.

Thus, the true basis of morality is S->PS->SS.

[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: Bob K ]</p>

Asha'man

Bob K, your description of natural morals is well written and one I can live with.

I had my own statement of atheist morality, but I think yours is better stated.

Mine was: If there is no afterlife, then I have only this life, and therefore this life is precious to me. Similarly, everybody else’s life is precious to them. If I want other people to respect the preciousness of my life, I must obviously respect theirs. After all, I can’t afford to go around making enemies.

I would like to comment on the 10th commandment, and say that it is clearly not in accordance with modern society and laws. Our whole capitalistic society is based on desire for goods. As long as you follow the 8th commandment and purchase these goods rather than steal them, then there is no problem.

Kosh

So, do you believe that this biblical condonment
of slavery (demonstrated well by Bob) is a part
that should be ignored? Do you believe that it
was in error? If ethical treatment of people was
part of the core message, then why would it
include this bit about slavery?

Do you think we should just throw out certain
parts of the Bible because they don't agree with
modern standards of ethics?

CX

Very well put. If you don't mind I'm going to post it at my message board.

<a href="http://www.factsforum.org" target="_blank">F.A.C.T.S.</a>

(editorial note: I am refering to Bob K's definition of secular morality)

[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: CowboyX ]</p>

Kosh

Bump.

Haran, would really appreciate an answer on this.

Haran

As I have said before, I am busy. There are numerous posts here for me to respond to. I would like to give thoughtful responses, but this requires time. Patience is a virtue...

Thanks,
Haran

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Haran ]</p>

Jack the Bodiless

I'd like to add the following to Bob's list:
Thus, if a man has sex with a young virgin without her father's prior consent (the consent of the woman is irrelevant), he must financially compensate the father.

Heleilu

Haran, why are you so upset about the name "Babel"? Doesn't that just mean "gate of god"? Of course, the name is shared with a certain large Mesopotamian city of antiquity, but I don't see how it's the insult you think it is.