Bob K

Does the Christian Bible New Testament sanctify and uphold all the atrocities of the Old Testament?

Premise #1: Prov. 30:5. Every word of God is pure.

Premise #2: 2 Tim. 3:16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Premise #3: The law for the Jews is the Pentateuch [the first five books of the Babel].

OT Atrocities

Reminder: The law for the Jews is the Pentateuch [the first five books of the Babel].

Does/does not this passage sanction slavery?

Exod. 21:2, 4-6. If thou buy an Hebrew manservant... If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he (the manservant) shall go out by himself. And if the servant shall plainly say, “I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free”; then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.

Lev. 25:44-46. Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families. ... And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever.

Did/did not the gods order slave-capturing expeditions?

Deut. 20:10-15. When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries to thee, and they shall serve thee. And if it make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it; and the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself. ... Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far from thee, which are not of the cities of those nations.

Did you notice the requirement/commandment of the gods to kill all males in those cities whose people resist being conquered?

Did/did not the Babel acknowledge slavery?

Exod. 21:20-21. And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he [the servant or maid] die under his hand; he shall surely be punished. ... Notwithstanding, if he [the master, the slaveowner] continue [to beat the servant] a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. [These passages clearly appear to say that if a slaveowner beats his slave to death over several days, that is okay, but if the slaveowner beats the slave and kills him quickly, that is not okay.]

Does/does not this following passage sanction selling daughters?

Exod. 21:7. And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do [be set free from, or sold from the master’s house].

NOTE: The man who sells his daughter is not to be punished.

NT Sanctification of OT Atrocities

Reminder: The law for Jews and Christians is the Pentateuch [the first five books of the Babel].

Luke 16:31. If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Matt. 5:17-19. [Quoting JC] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am come not to destroy the law, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass for the law till all be fulfilled. whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

NOTE: Does not this passage allegedly attributed to JC clearly indicate that JC does not intend to change the “law” but to implement it? And thereby sanctify it?

Luke 16:17. It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Complete Quote: 2 Tim. 3:15-16. From a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

John 5:39, 46-47. Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. ... For had ye believed Moses, you would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Luke 24:25, 27. Then he said unto them, “O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken.” ... And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the thing concerning himself.

John 1:17, 8:5. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth shall come by Jesus Christ. ... “Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such [an adulteress] shall be stoned: but what sayest thou?”

John 1:17. For the law was given by Moses, ...

Summary

1. The Xn Babel OT Pentateuch provides the “law” for Jews and Xns.

2. The Xn Babel OT Pentateuch/Law permits slavery and the selling of daughters.

3. The Xn Babel NT says JC did not refute or change the law, therefore JC did not act to refute slavery/the selling of daughters, therefore by not acting/refuting JC effectively sanctioned slavery and the selling of daughters.

Logical Argument Summary

Premise #1: Prov. 30:5. Every word of God is pure.

Premise #2: 2 Tim. 3:16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Premise #3: The law for the Jews is the Pentateuch [the first five books of the Babel].

Premise #4: Exod. 21:2, 4-6. If thou buy an Hebrew manservant... If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he (the manservant) shall go out by himself. And if the servant shall plainly say, “I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free”; then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.

Premise #5: Lev. 25:44-46. Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families. ... And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever.

Premise #6: Exod. 21:7. And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant ...

Premise #7: Matt. 5:17-19. [Quoting JC] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am come not to destroy the law, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass for the law till all be fulfilled. whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Conclusion #1: The Xn Babel OT sanctions slavery and the selling of daughters to be maidservants.

Conclusion #2: The Xn Babel NT asserts JC did not act to refute/change/destroy the law but to fulfill it and therefore uphold and sanctify it.

Conclusion #3: The Xn Babel [OT & NT] sanctions slavery and the selling of daughters to be maidservants.

[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: Bob K ]</p>

excreationist

<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl.htm" target="_blank">ReligiousTolerance.org</a> has a good article about this. It also talks about the terms "slaves" and "servants".

I think the verses that are particularly bad include:

Also, you didn't mention any slavery-related verses from Paul:
e.g.
<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=EPH+6:5-9&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off" target="_blank">Ephesians 6:5-9</a>:
Paul NEVER suggests or even hints that slaves should be set free - and he is talking to Christians that would listen to him and might even be faithful enough to become martyrs. In fact, the Bible doesn't tell people to give up slavery... well except from Egypt and Babylon when all of the Israelites were enslaved. But straight after they were set free from slavery, they began taking slaves. And what's the point of having slaves when you have to wander around for 40 years in the desert, and the food is provided by God (manna)? I guess they could gather wood. (But not on the Sabbath)

<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=COL+3:22&language=english&version=NI V&showfn=off" target="_blank">Colossians 3:22</a>:
So no strikes or protests... just be patient and wait for God to bring miracles, like he did in Egypt and WW2.

<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1TIM+6:1-2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off" target="_blank">1 Timothy 6:1-2</a>:
<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=TIT+2:9-10&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off" target="_blank">Titus 2:9-10</a>:
<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1PET+2:18-21&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off" target="_blank">1 Peter 2:18-21</a>:
Paul isn't saying that slavery is unjust suffering - just that slavery involves harsh masters.

Revelations also mentions slaves, so it seems like God expects slavery to be around until the end of the world... and then the faithful become "slaves of Christ" and worship God a lot while the rest, who are "slaves to sin" will burn in hell. (<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+6:15,13:16,19:18&language=englis h&version=NIV&showfn=off" target="_blank">Revelation 6:15,13:16,19:18</a>)

Paul's <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PHILEM+1&language=english&version=NL T&showfn=off&showxref=on" target="_blank">letter to Philemon</a> is a 25 verse book which talks about a runaway slave, Onesimus, who met Paul in prison and then Paul sent him back to his master. He asked Philemon not to punish Onesimus for his crime (including the crime of running away) and treat him well in the future (as a Christian brother but still a slave). The NIV notes say that Onesimus may have stolen from Philemon (verse 18), and the penalty under Roman law for this was death.

<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PHILEM+1:16&language=english&version =NLT&showfn=off&showxref=on" target="_blank">Philemon 1:16</a>:
So Paul is expecting Onesimus to remain a slave.

<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PHILEM+1:21&language=english&version =NLT&showfn=off&showxref=on" target="_blank">Philemon 1:21</a>:
Maybe this means that the slave will be fed better or something.
Paul could have hinted that the slave could be not only forgiven, but also freed. This might be a bad idea economically, but I thought Christianity was about making some sacrifices.

[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]</p>

Bob K

excreationist

Thanks for the information.

I will be adding it to the original post.

'Interesting to find how sick the Babel really is.

Bob K.

Haran

Perhaps you're not getting any answers because no one has heard of this "Babel" of which you speak...

Polemics do no good.

If you're looking for a fight with a theist, you'll probably get it. If you're looking for a rational discussion in hopes of convincing someone of your superior reasoning ability, you've already lost the battle. After all, inflamed emotions do not promote rational discussion...

Haran

Kosh

Haran, are you able to refute any of the points
that Bob made in the post? I seem to remember
you arguing in another thread how the central
core of the Bible's message is intact. Do the
topics Bob mentioned fall into that central
core?

Thanks.

-DM-

Haran:

I think it quite likely that Bob K asked his questions as a rhetorical device. After all, he pretty much answered his own questions. In addition, excreationist provided additional information which tends to support the points that Bob K seemed to make. Thus it doesn't seem to me to be true that he is "not getting any answers."

With regard to the "Babel," I think that the vast majority of people here have either heard that term used for the Bible, or at least will understand that it refers to the Bible.

In terms of looking for a fight, I wonder if you're looking for a fight? Your statements about looking for a fight, superior reasoning ability, having already lost the battle -- seem to me to be quite provocative.

You talk about "inflamed emotions." I didn't see any indication of inflamed emotions other than perhaps your post. Are your emotions inflamed?

I also notice that you have, so far, avoided any discussion of the substance of what either Bob K or excreationist posted. Why is that?

---------

To get back to the subject at hand. Yes, the Bible certainly supports slavery. In the Old Testament, slavery was allegedly (at least according to some interpretations) given (by God) as an everlasting institution. That we know of, Jesus said nothing against slavery. "Paul" told (Christian) slaves to be loyal to their masters even if it meant taking a beating.

--Don--

[Edited typo]

[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: Don Morgan ]</p>

Haran

Kosh, for me at least, it's not about "refuting points". It is about offering opinions and possibilities. Polemics only obscure truth and give rise to logic-obscuring emotions.

I do still believe that the central core of the Bible's message is intact.

Putting aside the seeming sarcastic tone of the question, I'm not quite sure how to answer this question. If you are sarcastically asking if slavery falls within the "central core", then I think you can guess my answer...no. If you are sincerely asking whether the ethical treatment of people falls within the "central core", then of course I would say yes.

On a final note, I do not ultimately see where subjective atheistic morals yield any more clairity on the issue of the morality of slavery than does Christianity. However, that is a topic for another forum.

Haran

Haran

Perhaps, since the thread seems to be directed toward theists, I should have said "not getting any answers from theists." Thank you for helping me clarify my meaning.

It is derogatory, unnecessary, and does not promote rational dialogue. I presume that rational dialogue is the underlying objective here at the Secular Web?

I see my point was well taken then...

Psychoanalysis? No, my emotions are not inflamed. However, I have seen it happen many times on other threads. Is that really what you want to promote as an administrator?

Yes, I suppose you could say that I have so far avoided the discussion. I am not here to beat or "refute" anyone but to exchange ideas, opinions, and possibilities...to make myself and others really think about issues and the stands they have taken.

This is a little strongly worded, IHMO. I would say that in only mildly protesting it, the Bible could be said to condone slavery.

Not sure I follow you here.

Nothing explicit, but this is not to say that he supported it...

Paul also told Christians that in Christ:

"there is neither slave nor free" (Gal 3:28)

"Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him. Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you-- although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men." (1 Cor 7:20-23)

"We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free-- and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." (1 Cor 12:13)

These do not sound like sayings from someone that liked the idea of slavery, especially with the connotations that are seemingly implied in this thread. At most, it can be said that Paul was ambivalent toward slavery, with the notable exception of his own slavery to Christ.

Haran

[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: Haran ]</p>

excreationist

That isn't the whole verse. The whole verse is:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

So are you saying that Paul literally meant that all people should be treated as equals, at all times?
If so, they what do you make of <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1TIM+2:11-15&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=off" target="_blank">1 Timothy 2:11-15</a>?

Here's the NIV text-note:
"If a Christian slave has an opportunity to get his freedom, he should take advantage of it. In the Roman Empire slaves were sometimes freed by Roman patricians. There is nothing wrong with seeking to improve your condition, but be content with every stage."

That would mean to try and buy your freedom or win the favour of others so that they can free you. Paul never advocates that slaves should break the law to get their freedom. The only laws he breaks are related to spreading the Gospel.

The NLT clarifies the last verse a bit:
<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR+7:23&language=english&version=N LT&showfn=on&showxref=on" target="_blank">1 Cor 7:23</a> - "...Don't be enslaved by the world" [Greek: don't become slaves of people]

Here's the NIV text-note:
"Christians in all stations of life should realize that their ultimate allegiance is not to men but to Christ, who bought them with his blood (6:20; 1 Pe 1:18-19)."

You know, it's about being for God vs. being for the world... do you honestly think that Paul is commanding people not to become literal everyday slaves? And who would decide to become a slave anyway? (They would only do it if they were forced to, to repay their debts, etc)

Yes, Christians are part of one big family. It doesn't mean that all act as equals in society. If they did, why didn't Paul suggest that people free their slaves. 1 Cor 7:23 only says not to become a slave - it doesn't say not to buy and use slaves.

Have a look at my comments and think again.

Bob K

Haran: Define operationally "atheist."

Define operationally "morals."

Define operationally "subjective."

Kindly avoid using statements such as "Everyone knows what I mean."

What are the “subjective atheistic morals"?

What is the basis/source/reference for your claims of whatever are the “subjective atheistic morals”?

[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: Bob K ]</p>