Carrie

Jesus said, "Ask and you will receive." But Jesus asked and he didn't receive:

(John 17:11) - Jesus prayed that all the believers would be ONE.

Wow look how all the believers are ONE today! We have at least 500 different denominations in the U.S. alone, and they are very different from each other.

You would think that it would be God's will to have all the believers be ONE, but I guess not.

Magus55

He isn't talking about us Carrie.

He is asking God to keep the Apostles together with the exception of Judas.


Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Perdition means lost soul, which is referring to Judas - the one Apostle who turned on Jesus.

We can keep doing this all day if you'd like? Try researching the meaning of your scripture before saying its all a contradiction and a joke.

Carrie

To Magus 55,

I knew you would say that. However, I look beyond Matt 17:6-19 to just after that in Matt 17:20-26. There Jesus is praying for ALL BELIEVERS: "My prayer is not for them (the disciples) alone, I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that ALL of them may be ONE." And verse 23 says, "And may they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me."

So, Jesus is talking about you (someone who has believed through the disciple's message). Jesus wants you and me
(if I were still a Christian) to be one and be in complete unity.

I was a member of the International Church of Christ (ICOC). Would you say that your church is ONE and UNIFIED with the ICOC, or that the members of my church and yours are unified in belief and friendship? Are you ONE with the Catholics or Apostolics, or Lutherans? I doubt it. Most Protestants don't like the Catholic beliefs, and most other Christian Churches don't like the ICOC and they call it a cult. That's not unity among the believers.

The point is, Jesus intended there to be one church. And there was just one church at first. When letters were written to the churches, the churches were referred to by the name of the city. For example, "to the church in Ephesus," or "to the church in Smyrna."

So wouldn't Jesus want there to still be ONE church today? One way of believing, not 500 different ways? Jesus wanted unity and oneness, but it does not exist in Christianity.

Butters

And yet, his prayer was not answered,

Jesus Prays for All Believers- John17:20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one.

Two thousand years later, the true believers are still killing each other over what they all THINK he said.

Magus55

Um Matt 17:20-26 has nothing to do with prayer, maybe you said the wrong chapter and verse?

And i don't go to church so no comment on the second part.

Ok, you meant John 17:20, Jesus is praying for all believers to be united within the Church of Christ which they are - All believing Christians are one under Christ - the difference between us and where the failure and misconception comes in is recognizing and travelling the path. All believers are still one under Jesus in that they are all saved by his gift of grace.

Butters

Strange that so mant people saved by grace are still killing each other over the correct way to worship.

Does "saved by grace" mean kill anyone that opposes your view?

Magus55

Which people are killing themselves over the correct way to worship?

Christians and Muslims?

Butters

How about Protestants and Catholics, for the best example.

Carrie

Magus Magus Magus,

Christian churches today are in NO WAY united. They don't even agree on how to get grace and be saved.

For example, many Christians believe that all you have to do is "pray Jesus into your heart" and he'll take care of the rest. This is belief comes from taking Rev. 3:20 out of context. Here Jesus is speaking to Christians, not non-Christians, when he says, "I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." So Jesus is supposedly knocking on the door of your heart
and you have to let him in.

This belief didn't even come about until the 1800's when churches started doing "altar calls" to get people involved and get them saved. No one before that time ever heard of getting saved this way.

A long time ago, a lady came to my door and told me to pray Jesus in my heart, and I did, and then I thought I was saved.
She never told me to repent of my sins, or be baptized, or anything. So I was going around sinning it up and thinking I was saved.

And I didn't repent until later, when someone from another church told me that I needed to. And this church thinks they have all the answers, and that all those mainstream churches, that believe in praying Jesus in your heart, are doomed.

There’s' a great article explaining the "Sinners Prayer" at:

http://www.chicagochurch.org/spiritu...ersprayer.html


***Also, Magus, how can you claim to be a Christian, yet not go to church? Paul said, in Hebrews 10:25, "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another." And Heb. 3:13 says "Encourage one another daily, so long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness."

Now you may say that you have Christian friends who encourage you, but then why don't you go to church with them? Why not go to a church? Is it because you can't find one you agree with? (a oneness and unity problem?) Laziness? Isn't church upposed to be awesome for Christians? Wouldn't you want to be around a ton of other believers worshipping your God?

There are many Christians I know who would not consider you a Christian at all since you don't go to church. How's that for oneness and unity with you? You know, even Jesus went to the Temple every weekend.

So instead of going to church where you could be encouraged, you are sitting home online talking to a bunch of atheists? Do you see the potential there for your heart to get hard? You know, a lot of us started out as believers, and now we're not.

Magus55

The oneness comes with those who are saved within Jesus. He unites all who seek his forgiveness. yes organized religion and denominations are far from unity - but thats not the point of his prayer.

First of all, im a Messianic Jew so i wouldn't go to church anyway. Second, there is only one Messianic Synagogue anyone near me and i just recently found out about it. Third, i don't like singing in public and have social phobia. I also am not crazy about organized religion systems ( Christianity isn't just a religion, its a relationship with Jesus). And my fellowship with other Christians is through msg boards - i discuss and praise God on 3 different Christian msg boards, and i'd argue that possibly bringing one more lost soul to Jesus is worth more than going to a possibly corrupt church. Bringing someone to Jesus is priceless.

And i don't think you can convince me to become Atheist - my life before Jesus was miserable and i don't want to go back to that hell. I stand by Jesus!