Proxima Centauri

I have reread my post. I can see it was unintentionally ambiguous.

agapeo

Brighid -- well said and a very reasonable response! :notworthy

brighid

Thank you agapeo

B

BadBadBad

Sorry, Darren, like I said it was more of a bad joke. I mean, how do you defend yourself against this? I didn't really believe telling her I believe in God would put an end to this. It would make for a very interesting argument with her though. Probably not a good idea.

I read this stuff, and it's like I want to come over there and fight with your wife myself. It pisses me off when I read shit like her saying "all I feel when I hug you is the warmth of your body." What do you say when your wife of what? 15 years and mother of your four children says something like that? Every time I read one of your posts, I get pissed off.

BadBadBad

agapeo,

We have another thread on the counselling "discussion": Atheists and Christian marriage counseling . I think it's a little tired now though. We've agreed on some and disagreed on the rest. Care to join us anyway?

One thing I think you're missing on Goliath's post is that Darren's wife may be using the divorce threat as a big bang power play. Children like to play that game against parent's unduly influenced by crying and what not. Deflating that threat and getting out from under that bullying tactic would be a good thing. How you deflate that threat is very tricky when she may very well be on the verge of pushing the divorce button irreversibly.

Running down to a lawyer and filing for divorce, might be a little overkill if that's all you wanted to do. I tell you though after sitting in Darren's chair for a lot longer, telling my wife I'm done living in the dog house under the threat divorce made a big difference. If we're going to stay married, there better be more for me than that. If that's all there's going to be though, I agree with Goliath. Why wait. So, how long anyone can go with a clear declaration that "hey baby, I'm never going to love you, and you're going to be the scum of the earth in my eyes," is an individual thing. Nobody should live life with another person like that, kids or no kids. No one should put up with threats of divorce.

HelenM

I agree. But while you can insist on no threats (and/or demonstrate that the Bible says they may not divorce you), you can't force someone to feel good about being married to you. And I would imagine that that's the real goal - to get back to where marriage is an experience that brings more pleasure than hurt into the lives of the couple.

A counselor (or other skilled mediator-type person) can help a husband and wife identify and agree to make small changes that actually can turn a relationship around because each person sees there is HOPE. Couples can do this themselves but this can be very difficult if they've got to the point where it's hard even to talk without having an argument.

It's amazing that after a lot of conflict you might think you know everything about why your spouse is mad at you - but then, in the presence of a third person, you hear things from them you didn't expect - and I don't mean discouraging things, necessarily. And if nothing else, it can mean a lot to hear a spouse who is too angry to say it to you directly, at home, that they really do want to stay married to you...

Helen

agapeo

Thanks for the invitation Brett. I'm relunctant to participant for two reasons. 1. Because this is a secular board and I'm a theist. I understand the prejudices that are inherent with the viewpoints of those on opposite sides of the fence. SL&S is for those who are secular in position and I understand how reasonable it is to only desire advice and support from those who can relate to you. Although I would argue that marital issues such as the ones being discussed here are not something I am not personally acquainted with. I had to work through divorce issues with my wife for almost 2 years, so I know full well the pain and sorrow that one can have when the person you married has made changes in their viewpoints and at times seem to be someone else altogether.
2. I think that when one engages in support of another they have an obligation to follow it through to the end with them. Whatever that end may be. My time restraints don't allow me to become too involved. And I think that's a disservice to the individual going through the situation. I just don't for sure if I would be able to continue the discussion on a regular basis. So I try to offer a little support when I can and hope that those who have more time will offer reasonable support by taking all things into consideration. So . . .
No I'm not missing the point. I'm not that naive. I understand what Darren's wife is doing and I don't agree with her doing it. But I can't speak to her. I think someone suggested that his wife get in touch with Helen and I think that if she was willing to that Helen could be of great help to her in working through her issues. Otoh it exposes Darren to other problems in his marriage. That is he may have to explain; defend why he is even airing out his marital problems among those on this Board. I know, I know she is doing so with her theist supporters. But perhaps the fallacy of "two wrongs don't make a right" applies. Not that I think either is wrong but one of the parties involved might think so unreasonably and that just complicates the problems. So that suggestion is iffy IMO. In any case it irratates me when someone who isn't actually dealing with the situation will offer such flippant advice as Goliath has. He doesn't have to actually deal with the ramifications of what he suggested. Before one is too quick in advising another all aspects of the situation should be considered. That is what a counselor should do. I don't see what difference it makes if they are Christian or secular. If I knew of a secular counseloring that was well admired and successful at salvaging a marriage I would definitely not hesitate in seeking their counsel. Shoot -- I don't ask a medical doctor if he is a Christian before I allow him/her to do surgery on me.

Anyhow, I've read the rest of your comments and I see the point you are making. And as to your invitation concerning the other thread -- I will consider it and thanks for the invite.

BadBadBad

Darren,

Can you clarify something for us? We've spent a lot of time going back and forth on this. Folks here keep on talking about all these other issues. Would your life be in such a mess if it were just all these other issues?

I met a guy I had to work with, fortunately for a short time. It became clear to me that he was a born again wear it on your sleeve type. At some point it came out that I didn't buy into all that.

Have you ever seen the Star Trek episode where the landing party comes down, and finds this city where everyone is real happy? They all go around in black and white mindless bliss worshipping this guy Landry or something. Then at one point, someone yells out, "You're not of the Body!" Then they have riots in the street chasing the landing party. It's a must see for this topic.

Anyway kind of like that, this guy tells me that's it. I wish I could remember his exact words. He said that's it. I'll never have any respect for you as a person, I'll never be your friend, I'll never have anything to do with you. Maybe not True Christian, but it sounds pretty familiar. Kind of exactly like your wife's list. All just because I don't believe.

I just don't see all these other issues we're talking about.

Darren, let me counsel you. This is all her and this mindless crap we call christianity. If we take all this religious trash from your life, wrap it up in a hermetically sealed Hefty bag (it is quite a load ya' know), and drop kick it out to the curb, this thread will be wrapped up for good. See you in General Religious Discussions.

Vicar Philip

You are exactly right. I know, deep down, my wife really does want to stay married to me. I know she loves me. My problem is getting her to separate this perceived "love for god" from her "love for Darren." Because right now, to her, those are one and the same. And that is ludicrous!

I've told her over and over that I married her because I loved her, not her love of god. In fact, in the early years of our marriage, I truly was a "self-centered bastard," spending the large majority of my free time practicing classical guitar. It was my major, after all.

My ultimate desire is that she simply accepts my atheism, and we can go from there.

Vicar Philip

Well, like any other normal couple on the face of the earth, we have problems besides this. Finances are probably at the top of the list, but it's something we can work out. We have had problems in the past, involving her dysfunctional childhood, but we got through them.

This particular problem seems much more fundamental to her. I had never realized that to her, our entire marriage, indeed our entire lives, past, present, and future, are based solely and irrevocably on GOD. Silly me, I always thought all those things were based on our love for each other. I just never said those exact words to her, I never had a reason to. But now I do.

I'm looking forward to seeing the pastor just to get past this one last roadblock to the rest of my life. Until I see him and find out how she's going to react, I honestly don't know if I'm to remain a married man or not.

<sigh.>