Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bonduca · 03-13-2002, 05:48 PM

Quote:

With a little ingeniosity and creativity, one can transform a roll of duct tape into the perfect wallet! You probably won't even use the whole roll!

My stars. I can't wait to hear your idea of kinky lingerie.

spin · 03-13-2002, 05:52 PM

Bonduca, continuing the usual brainlessness (I'm willing to consider better nouns here, Bonduca, thoughI've already watered this down for you) asks:
---------------------------
Punkerslut, are you more interested in results, or in feeding a sense of misunderstood self-importance?
---------------------------

This is a false dilemma as it overlooks various other possibilities. Could you read a basic fallacies of logic text? It may help you not make such painful boners.

Aethernaut · 03-13-2002, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by alek0:
Furthermore, please explain to me how would it be moral and ethical to force my cat, who does not want to be a vegeterian, to eat vegeterian diet?

I think I stated something similar to this earlier in this thread. It was ignored.

-SK

x-member · 03-13-2002, 05:55 PM

Quote:

"Suffering" carries with it the connotation of "experience"; the idea that pain or misery is not simply felt, but comprehended and understood. I'm certainly no expert in animal biology or neurology, but I'm not sure that its correct to equate non-human animal's experience of pain with "suffering". Isn't this just more anthropomorphising?

Nicely said. I doubt that the ""experience"" had by an oyster being boiled alive would be even remotely similar to that of a human in the same circumstances (or a cow, or an ant, or a mole).

Jon

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Jon Up North ]

spin · 03-13-2002, 05:55 PM

As you continue in this quest for ultimate dorkery, Bonduca, I guess the best thing to do, is hit the delete button... Wait, there isn't one. Well, skip over aanything wearing that monniker.

PS:
------------------------------
With a little ingeniosity and creativity, one can transform a roll of duct tape into the perfect wallet! You probably won't even use the whole roll!
------------------------------

Bonduca:
------------------------------
My stars. I can't wait to hear your idea of kinky lingerie.
------------------------------

Have a nice life.

punkersluta · 03-13-2002, 05:56 PM

Schroedinger's Kitten...

Quote:

Are you ovo-lacto vegetarians (or perhaps ovo or lacto) or vegans? Or even pescetarian for that matter?

I'm a Vegan. I do not eat meat or dairy. I'm also a Socialist. I do not buy Nike products.

bonduca...

Quote:

Punkerslut, are you more interested in results, or in feeding a sense of misunderstood self-importance?

A little of both, but not entirely neither.

Detached9...

Quote:

I'm not sure the exact wording, but Mad Kally said something similar to "Why do all the vegans go crazy when a vegetarianism thread is brought up?"

I've seen some bitter responses to this thread from both sides, I wouldn't single out one or the other. Although I agree with most of Punker's arguments, I don't agree with his somewhat frequent attacks at peoples' character. I don't think most of the non-vegetarians here are being horribly respectful either.

I agree. I said before...

Quote:

I think you are completely ignorant of this subject. Whenever I start a topic like this, I get all sorts of morons and fools: (1) "God made animals out of meat so we could eat them!" (2) "Jesus's divine morality states that we can consume his creation!" (3) "Teeth are designed to eat flesh!" (4) "There is real evidence that plants are conscious beings!" (5) "Where's the proof that animals are conscious beings? None! Because they aren't!"

Hell, take a look at the first page. Several people jumped on me because I use quotes at the bottom of my posts and tronvillain said "fuck your plea for vegitarianism."

Bill Snedon...

Quote:

In order to "steal", one must first possess the concept of the right to property. I see no reason to believe that non-human animals possess this concept.

Please refer to the numerous works of Jane Goodall and her work with Chimpanzees. It is highly accepted that these creatures are fully knowledgable in this area. Even not just them...

Charles Darwin...

Quote:

Many animals, however, certainly sympathise with each other's distress or danger. This is the case even with birds. Captain Stansbury found on a salt lake in Utah an old and completely blind pelican, which was very fat, and must have been well fed for a long time by his companions. Mr. Blyth, as he informs me, saw Indian crows feeding two or three of their companions which were blind; and I have heard of an analogous case with the domestic cock. We may, if we choose, call these actions instinctive; but such cases are much too rare for the development of any special instinct. I have myself seen a dog, who never passed a cat who lay sick in a basket, and was a great friend of his, without giving her a few licks with his tongue, the surest sign of kind feeling in a dog. [The Descent of Man, by Charles Darwin, chapter 4, part I.]

If an animal is capable of moral feeling, of delivering food to its harmed companions, is it not certainly capable of understanding property?

Quote:

In order to "rape", one must first possess the concept of necessary consent to intercourse. Again, I see no reason to believe that non-human animals possess this concept.

In every single mammalian creature, there is a mating process, a form of consent and acceptance. Some animals dance for each others, some build houses (certain birds), some battle each other, etc., etc..

Quote:

If you are going to use arguments that depend upon the possession by non-human animals of moral and ethical systems equivalent to human ones, you will need to provide some evidence to demonstrate their existence. Otherwise, your argument will fail.

Absolutely not. I can ask these things hypothetically, and you fail to understand that humans are animals who do these things, too. If it is acceptable to imitate a lion and slaughter, may I imitate a human and destroy?

Quote:

This would seem to me to be inconsistent. Given the same "trapped on an island" scenario, would you argue that it was acceptable to kill and eat a human child if no other option were present?

It would absolutely be acceptable.

Quote:

This is a poor set of analogies. Guns and knives are not moral agents.

And human teeth are? What if the knife was made out of a tooth?

I'll respond to the rest of you people when I get some time. I'm going to take out some aggression and frustration by blowing up people in Blood II: The Chosen (yes, yes, I know.... it's a horribly outdated computer game, but hell, I'm running on a '98 machine... I'm surprised that Bulletin Boards load!).

<a href="http://www.punkerslut.com" target="_blank">www.punkerslut.com</a>

For 108,
Punkerslut

bonduca · 03-13-2002, 05:59 PM

Spin, please take a deep breath and try to regain control of yourself. These tantrums are unbecoming.

x-member · 03-13-2002, 06:01 PM

Spin:

I think even Punkerslut would have appreciated that humor given that his comment about duct-tape wallets was clearly said in jest. When someone says something in jest, and another person responds with another joke, it is generally a sign of mutually appreciated humor. Unless you think that Punkerslut seriously crafts wallets out of duct-tape

FWIW I was going to reply (tongue in cheek) that Punkerslut's profile says he's unemployed, and skill with duct-tape is valuable during such times. I would be suprised if Punkerslut didn't also see the humor in that.

There is a difference between sharing in someone's sense of humor and, say, insulting them flat out.. Example:

Quote:

As you continue in this quest for ultimate dorkery, Bonduca, I guess the best thing to do, is hit the delete button... Wait, there isn't one. Well, skip over aanything wearing that monniker.

Now, as I have given examples of sharing a mutual sense of ha-ha.. I shall give an example of responding to an insult with an insult.

Quote:

Have a nice life.

Spin, get one

See the difference?

Bill Snedden · 03-13-2002, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spin:
PB, sorry, I find your consistent use of this "contract theory" stuff as arbitrary manipulation for obvious ends. You want to eat meat so you stack your theory to suit it. I see nothing moral in that.
And Dahmer says your contract theory is arbitrary.

This seems disingenuous at best. Contractarian moral theories are well-known, with a long history stemming from the philosophical thought of Hobbes, Kant, Locke, and Rousseau (among others). Contemporary contractarian theorists include John Rawls and David Gauthier. Such theories are obviously not some type of "arbitrary manipulation."

It is obvious that you disagree with the either the foundation or the application being used by PB, but you have so far failed to provide any kind of real rebuttal to PB's arguments.

I suggest if you're really interested in doing so that you lay out for us your own ethical framework. Is it deontological (do we have some sort of duty to animals)? Consequentialist (does eating animals have some kind of "bad" result)? What are the standards by which you determine that eating non-human animals is "bad" and vegetarianism is "good"?

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Mageth · 03-13-2002, 06:04 PM

This is of course why no primates have claws, nor ripping teeth.

Here's a quote of observances from an African game preserve at <a href="http://www.sabisabi.com/files/full/8November2000.html" target="_blank">this site</a>:

"With the lengthening of the grass and sprouting of the trees, spotting the small game has become more challenging. However, some of the rarest to observe, have provided us with spectacular sightings, namely a pair of courting HONEY BADGERS, a BABOON killing an impala lamb, and SERVAL seen on five different occasions. "

Here's another description of baboon behavior:

"Baboons spend their days moving over the ground, about rocks. They are, as well, great tree climbers, however, they generally avoid forests. They have a very strict hierarchy and social
structure. They have been observed in organizing groups in order to trap and capture an antelope. Baboons have very strong jaws and are able to distinguish color."

There also have been documented cases in India and Africa of troops of baboons killing and eating human children and occasionally adults. Some of them made a habit out of it.

There's also a macaque with the common name "crab eating macaque," I would assume because of its strictly vegetarian diet.

Here's a partial list of "vegetarian" primates and their diets, all determined from observation:

Baboon: Diet: Fruit, Leaves, Roots, Nuts, Insects, Even small Antelopes
Drill: Diet: Vegetarians, some insects, small Vertebrates
Loris: Diet: Insects, Tree Frogs, Birds & Bird Eggs, Lizards.
Marmoset: Diet: Insects, fruits, small lizards
Moustached monkey: Diet: Leaves, Shoots, Fruit, Seeds, Eggs, Lizards
Potto: Diet: Fruit, Leaves, lizards, snails, Bird Eggs
Squirrel monkey: Diet: Insects, small birds, spiders, eggs
Tarsier: Diet: Insects, Lizards (Eats only Live Prey)
Vervet: Diet: Fruit, leaves, grain, small reptiles, insects, bird eggs.

Read the article I cited, which is specifically on primate diet.

I've read stuff on primate diet. At most, it seems to be a matter of debate, but silly debate in my opinion because primates have been observed in the wild eating insects, crustaceans, reptiles, birds and small mammals, as noted above. Female chimpanzees have even been observed stealing, killing and eating a baby chimpanzee from a low-ranking female in a troop.

As I said, many primates are generally classified as omnivores (look at the links I provided). Your statement that they're not is demonstrably wrong.

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03-13-2002, 05:52 PM	#232
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Bonduca, continuing the usual brainlessness (I'm willing to consider better nouns here, Bonduca, thoughI've already watered this down for you) asks: --------------------------- Punkerslut, are you more interested in results, or in feeding a sense of misunderstood self-importance? --------------------------- This is a false dilemma as it overlooks various other possibilities. Could you read a basic fallacies of logic text? It may help you not make such painful boners.

03-13-2002, 05:55 PM	#235
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	As you continue in this quest for ultimate dorkery, Bonduca, I guess the best thing to do, is hit the delete button... Wait, there isn't one. Well, skip over aanything wearing that monniker. PS: ------------------------------ With a little ingeniosity and creativity, one can transform a roll of duct tape into the perfect wallet! You probably won't even use the whole roll! ------------------------------ Bonduca: ------------------------------ My stars. I can't wait to hear your idea of kinky lingerie. ------------------------------ Have a nice life.

03-13-2002, 05:59 PM	#237
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	Spin, please take a deep breath and try to regain control of yourself. These tantrums are unbecoming.

03-13-2002, 06:04 PM	#240
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	This is of course why no primates have claws, nor ripping teeth. Here's a quote of observances from an African game preserve at <a href="http://www.sabisabi.com/files/full/8November2000.html" target="_blank">this site</a>: "With the lengthening of the grass and sprouting of the trees, spotting the small game has become more challenging. However, some of the rarest to observe, have provided us with spectacular sightings, namely a pair of courting HONEY BADGERS, a BABOON killing an impala lamb, and SERVAL seen on five different occasions. " Here's another description of baboon behavior: "Baboons spend their days moving over the ground, about rocks. They are, as well, great tree climbers, however, they generally avoid forests. They have a very strict hierarchy and social structure. They have been observed in organizing groups in order to trap and capture an antelope. Baboons have very strong jaws and are able to distinguish color." There also have been documented cases in India and Africa of troops of baboons killing and eating human children and occasionally adults. Some of them made a habit out of it. There's also a macaque with the common name "crab eating macaque," I would assume because of its strictly vegetarian diet. Here's a partial list of "vegetarian" primates and their diets, all determined from observation: Baboon: Diet: Fruit, Leaves, Roots, Nuts, Insects, Even small Antelopes Drill: Diet: Vegetarians, some insects, small Vertebrates Loris: Diet: Insects, Tree Frogs, Birds & Bird Eggs, Lizards. Marmoset: Diet: Insects, fruits, small lizards Moustached monkey: Diet: Leaves, Shoots, Fruit, Seeds, Eggs, Lizards Potto: Diet: Fruit, Leaves, lizards, snails, Bird Eggs Squirrel monkey: Diet: Insects, small birds, spiders, eggs Tarsier: Diet: Insects, Lizards (Eats only Live Prey) Vervet: Diet: Fruit, leaves, grain, small reptiles, insects, bird eggs. Read the article I cited, which is specifically on primate diet. I've read stuff on primate diet. At most, it seems to be a matter of debate, but silly debate in my opinion because primates have been observed in the wild eating insects, crustaceans, reptiles, birds and small mammals, as noted above. Female chimpanzees have even been observed stealing, killing and eating a baby chimpanzee from a low-ranking female in a troop. As I said, many primates are generally classified as omnivores (look at the links I provided). Your statement that they're not is demonstrably wrong.

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