Kenny

Not necessarily. First, however, allow me to make some disclaimers. I have been a Calvinist, but I am in the process of reevaluating my views on this matter. Unfortunately, lately all my intellectual energy has been directed toward passing my final semester of classes so I can graduate. Life’s great problems have taken a back seat to more immediate concerns, but I hope to hit this issue hard sometime in the near future. Also, do not expect me to stick around for an in depth discussion as I do not have the time for that sort of thing right now.

First, what distinguishes a Calvinist view from a non-Calvinist view, in my mind, is precisely the issue you have alluded to. If the deciding factor between salvation and damnation for the individual is seen as God’s sovereign choice of election made independently of human freedom, the position is Calvinistic. If the deciding factor is human freedom, the position is non-Calvinistic. That being said, there is lots of room in the Calvinist camp concerning how human freedom plays out in other situations, and the viewpoints range all the way from seeing human beings simply being puppets on God’s string to seeing a great deal of human freewill being involved in course of events.

With respect to the issue at hand, I think that a Calvinist could consistently maintain that the preaching and prayers that were used by God to save a particular person were predestined and that they were acts of human freedom as well. If God foreknew all that would take place in all possible circumstances and God chose to predestine person x for salvation, and if God chooses to work through certain types of means to bring about the salvation of individuals (such as prayer, preaching, etc.), and God is, as Christians believe, constantly influencing people, then God could easily insure that the salvation of person x was brought about through the free decisions of others. If I’m stubborn and refuse to follow the Holy Spirit’s leading to pray for person x and preach to him, then God can simply move in Sally’s heart to do so, etc. God would know how all this would play out beforehand and would be able to manipulate all the variables accordingly, insuring that one possible set of circumstances comes about to result in the salvation of person x. Thus God’s plan to save person x would have been “predestined” (decided beforehand), but God would have made that plan by factoring in the contingencies involved in human freedom.

So, back to the original question. If person x will be saved even if I don’t decide to pray because God can get Sally to pray instead, why should trouble myself? I think there are several reasons.

1.) God commands me to do it. I should be obedient to God’s commands.

2.) It is a privilege to be used by God to accomplish His purposes in salvation, one that I would miss out on if I didn‘t pray.

3.) Ontologically, person x’s fate may be decided and unalterable, but epistemically, with respect to my knowledge of the situation, it is not. Thus my prayers make it more probable, from my perspective, that person x will be saved.

Point three needs elaboration. Basically what I am saying is that at the level of Ultimate Reality, at the level of God’s eternal decree, person x’s fate may be decided. But I don’t know what that decision is. I do know that since God often works through means like prayer and preaching to bring about the salvation of individuals and that God arranges for those means to come about, if no one prays for or preaches to person x then it there is a good chance (in terms of my limited knowledge) that God has not arranged for person x’s salvation. Consequently, by praying for person x, I open up the possibility (again, in terms of my limited knowledge) that God has decided to use me as the means through which person x’s salvation will come about. Thus, by deciding to pray for person x, I increase the epistemic probabilities, in terms of my own knowledge, that person x is elect and will be saved. If I care about person x’s welfare, this is something I will want to do.

Anyway, those are my late night, let’s procrastinate form homework, ramblings for this evening.

God Bless,
Kenny

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: Kenny ]</p>

Automaton

So Calvinism is the only way out of this dilemma? If you're talking about the pre-ordained actions flavour of it, that destroys the major objection to the argument from human evil, the free will defense. I've even had some jerk inform me that what Hitler did was god's will because the Jews killed Jesus. Pre-ordained actions Calvinism turns God into a horrible monster, conflicting with the idea that God is benevolent. The other flavour asserts that God arbitrarily chooses those who will be saved, and our actions have nothing to do with it. Then why be a Christian? These people are total methodological atheists, so they might as well just throw away their religion.

Samhain

Automaton:

It would seem that you cannot fight emotion with reason.

MortalWombat

So in essence, even if Lucy's intentions were to become a Christian, she was killed so that she wouldn't become one because she wasn't on the guest list?

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: MortalWombat ]</p>

free12thinker

Yeah Wombat, don't you get it yet!?

Okay, just kidding.

There is no credibility to this whole selection process. Who goes to hell? Do we go unless we repent? Do we go even if we're very nice people but we lack the faith? Is it already decided from birth? Different answers from different folks in different religions. No consistency at all. So what else is new?

The whole idea of going to hell for not doing what God wishes is unbelievably selfish, self-righteous, and speaks volumes about God's over-inflated ego, his power trip and everything in between. It abolishes the idea of free will and it wreaks of Adolf Hitler and every other tyrant who tortured people for not following his beliefs.

And what about prayer? Are we to prey to god for giving us the gift of life? Why? We didn't ask to be put here. Life isn't a bowl of cherries for everyone. What is there to be thankful for if you're born with Cerebal Palsy or severe mutations? Do we kid ourselved in stating that life (in any capacity) is worth thanking God for?

Whatever.

Atticus_Finch

I think you make a mistake in your logic here. If God is all knowing, then he can know what is going to occur in any point in time. Knowing what will occur does not equate to causing it to occur. For all intents and purposes, you KNOW that the sun will rise tomorrow. I doubt you would claim that you caused it to rise.

Obviously, the question of human free-will as it relates to divine sovereignty has been the subject of internal debate among Christians for centuries. Arminians teach that God soveriegnly choose who will be saved based on his foreknowledge of who, if given the opportunity, would chose to follow God. This argument accounts for both human free-will and divine soveriegnty.

The Arminians would say that your two scenarios are flawed in that, if she was actually going to sincerely choose Christ at the retreat she would not have been hit by the truck. Therefore, since she was hit by the truck she was never going to be saved. This does not remove free-will it just accounts for the fact that God can know everything that will happen before it does happen. We still make each individual choice, God, being outside the constraints of time, knows what choice we will make before we make it.

Regards,

Finch

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Atticus_Finch ]</p>

HelenM

I agree that theoretically God can know things - He must if he's omniscient, actuallly - without causing them.

BUT I disagree with your illustration since we don't know the future.

It's a 'prediction' if we say we know the sun will rise tomorrow, based on statistics on its past rising and setting, on observations, on science in its current state.

(Or - it's just faith that it will because God is faithful )

But no, we don't know. And if we don't know that we certainly don't know about people's personal choices.

There's no 'in this world' analogy to God foreknowing without forechoosing. Because no human being foreknows with certainty.

I think the best Christian answer is that if God wanted that woman to be saved she'd have gotten saved during her lifetime - her own free choice but also only possible because He acted to enable her to make that free-will choice, through the Holy Spirit. Else she would reject Him. Calvinism says you can't accept God without His Spirit making it possible for you to make that choice. Then when He does you DO make it. But it's still your choice.

(At this point I pause to )

I think all arguments that God lets people decide whether to go to heaven or not are less Biblical than the the ones that say He chooses who will and who won't.

But there seem to be verses that say both, in one Bible...hence Christians continue to debate it...

love
Helen

free12thinker

First, I will second Helen's reply to your attempts at equating our knowledge of the sun rising with that of God foreseeing the future. We have good a idea that the sun will rise because it has in the past. We've seen the data. We've seen the rise. This does not equate to someone (deity or human) foreseeing all events before they happen. It would make more sense to assume that God, knowing how this girl was, (sinful in the past ) that he just knew she was too far gone to repent. This equates to us foreseeing a drug addicts death. We don't absolutely know it's going to happen, but we can make pretty good guesses.

On the other hand, if God does know who will be saved, based on who would choose to follow him, why are there people who aren't followers (like me), on earth. If he knows I will not follow him, and therefore, will not be saved, why am I here?
To be an example. That's pretty foul. Create a being who is destined for hell, and let Earth serve as a tease. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!

Why do people question God's intentions and love and all that huff-n-puff stuff? I wonder..

doc58

I used to be a staunch Calvinist(I used to love to read John Piper) through and through but no longer believe. I realize you Calvinists say this is impossible but bear with me. (Calivinism is taught in the Bible, but so is Arminianism. It is just another example of the Bible being inconsistent in its teachings. The Calvinists interpret Arminian verses like John 3:16 in light of their Calvinistic beliefs and Arminians interpret Ephesians 1 in light of their Arminian beliefs)
I believe that Calvinism and thus salvation by grace is one of the most disgusting and cruel doctrines man has ever invented. There is absolutely no difference in the Calvinist teaching about salvation and salvation by drawing straws. According to Calvinisim, God chose who he would save before anyone was ever born based not on anything in that person. Therefore, since nothing about any person affected his choice, he chose randomly. So, as a Calvinist, you believe that God created billions of people in history fully intending to torture most of them for all eternity and refusing to awaken most of them spiritually so as to make them fit to be with Him for eternity. The ones who He has decided to save were chosen randomly, could have been by throwing dice or drawing straws. Tough luck for the poor saps who got the short straw.

I am embarrassed that I ever fully believed and taught this nonsense.

G B Mayes

Though one may be absolutely certain he is not a follower of Christ, the door is not closed until death. Many great Christians were once avowed atheists. The good news of election is that anyone
who seriously seeks and desires to be saved will indeed be saved, regardless of former behavior or beliefs. The ones that are not part of the elect seldom ponder or seriously consider the issue of Christ.
Being God, it is his perogative to create vessels for different purposes, some for noble use, others ignoble. Also, He has used the unsaved, as well as the saved, to demonstate His glory. An example is Pharoh and his refusal to let the people of Israel leave Egypt. Pharoh never had a chance. God hardened Pharoh's heart to show His glory to Israel.

One may believe there is no God. If there is a God, the one who called everything into existence by his word, the one that can hold the oceans in his hands, He gets to make the rules.

It is impossible for such a God to have an over-inflated ego. By definition He is self-rightous, the only being in existence appropriately so.

It's probably not possible to "intend" to be a Chritian. Study, explore, "check-out", yes, but "intend", no. She would never be killed to keep her from Christianity. Her life whether long or short would be sufficient for her to see the light.