Tom in KC

Doc,

The original posts that I made were motivated by a desire to share that Christianity, if pursued openly and without an assumption of its not being valid, CAN be compelling. That many, many people have looked closely at things and have become Christians. There are many posts here that suggest that an intelligent, levelheaded person will not allow himself or herself to be duped by Christianity. I am merely attempting to offer a different perspective.

To answer your questions:

1) No I don’t agree. I, of course, acknowledge your point. However, as Helen pointed out, the “proof” of virginity might not have been limited to the proof specifically mentioned. This is not nearly enough of a red flag for me to reject the entire Bible. If it is for you, I respect that.
2) Sure, and I said as much. However, if he did there wouldn’t be any point to faith. Everyone would just follow along so as to be saved; as Arrowman states, “What sane person would, believing God exists, reject his rules, knowing the consequences?.”
3) Sure, and if I have given you the opposite impression, I apologize. You have stated that my posts make you sad, because presumably you think that I’m wrong. Posts of non-believers make me sad for he same reason. Actually, my main point in starting this thread is to voice my concern that Christians sometimes turn people off by the way that they say “you’re wrong”.

I hope that clears some things up.

Love,
Tom

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Tom in KC ]</p>

HelenM

You're offering the perspective that intelligent people will allow themselves to be duped by Christianity???

Well, I don't think many people here will disagree with that!!!

Sorry, Tom...I couldn't resist...

love
Helen

doc58

Tom in KC,
Thanks for the reply.
Regarding your answer to the 3rd question. The Bible says, "If you seek me you will find me if you seek me with all your heart." That sounds like an iron clad guarantee.

You have acknowledged that there are honest, wholehearted seekers who do not find God?
Why doesn't this scripture hold true?
TO those of us who seek with all our hearts, why won't God reveal himself to us in a way that leads to belief?

HelenM

doc58 I hear ya

I very much believe in seeking 'the truth' though, until we find it...

love
Helen

doc58

Helen,
Because of my family situation, church background and leadership, and the good friends I have in my life, my massively strong preference is that the truth be in the God of Christianity as propounded in your average Bible Church since I believed that for many, many years. It is very distressing that my search for truth has led me to believe, totally against my desire, that the Bible is just another man made religious book. Oh how I wish it weren't true but my heart and my mind tell me it isn't. One exception to wishing it were true is the doctrine of Hell. It is the most vile, evil doctrine ever taught and the men who made it up are evil men trying to scare people inot believing.

Tom in KC

Doc58,

You bring up an incredibly important, but complex issue. I think that we’re starting from the premise that neither group is demonstrably superior in their thinking and the extent of their analysis. Why have some non-Christians read the Bible, thought about the important issues, and rejected Christianity? There are many people on this list who can answer that better than I, since my answer would be speculation. However, I don’t want to leave you and others with the impression that I’m not responding to your questions. So (once again) here goes nothing:

I think all of us would acknowledge that our makeup and our experiences impact our thinking one way or another. On the other thread, I compared the hope and trust and the “gut-feel” leap that are needed to enter a marriage or other close relationship to the mindset needed to come to faith. One person responded that they could never have that much trust, and that they would never get married as a result. I don’t presume to know much about why you no longer believe except for a handful of examples in the OT that trouble you. Is there more? I can’t comment on your experiences beyond what I have unless you are comfortable telling me more about why you don’t believe.

I guess it all comes down to what Jesus precisely means by “seek”. There may be things external to Christianity that influence our thinking about Christianity. If those things come to bear and we no longer believe, is it possible that we are no longer seeking Him? Perhaps, these “external” things are the reason for Jesus’ reference to entering through the narrow gates in a following verse in Matthew.

Love,
Tom

Tom in KC

Wow, this IS a tough crowd! Even Christians are showing their teeth.

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Tom in KC ]</p>

HelenM

I wrote 15 pages on my site about <a href="http://home.att.net/~shmildenhall/weighdwn/hell2.html" target="_blank">the doctrine of Hell</a>, actually If Jesus said what is recorded about hell, it seems to me he envisioned it as a place for hypocritical religious people; people who abused the power they had over others; people who actually did evil things - obviously evil things.

Anyway, your comments are about inerrancy. Actually I am not that concerned about inerrancy because I'm mystical enough to believe that if God wants to talk to people God can do it through the back of a cereal packet (with all due respect)...so if someone says "God speaks to me through this" then...that's ok with me. I mean, depending on what that leads them to do...

At present my view is that Christianity has a lot of good things in it; I don't deny it also has things I really don't like...well, I mean, people who espouse it and/or Christianity itself do/does.

I forgot whether you said where you are at present in terms of you and church and God. Did you quit church? Are you an atheist? You can PM or e-mail me if you don't want to discuss this on the board, of course. I'm just curious. (As usual!)

love
Helen

HelenM

Oh, don't worry, it was a grin and a !!

Muad'Dib

Tom,

Perhaps I can bridge the seeming gap between this observation (which I find myself agreeing with) and one of your current interests (whether or not God has allegedly left too little, or just enough, evidence of his existence) by pointing out that in all likelihood, what you consider to be viable evidence for the truth of Christianity might not be the same as what many people here would consider viable evidence. The reverse seems to be true as well, since you have rejected some hypothetical evidences as too obvious to be used by a perfectly good deity.

I, personally (and there are others too, I'm sure), would be interested to hear what you consider to be the sum total of the perfectly adequate evidence for God's existence. I see the observation that there are intelligent, thinking people on both sides of the theistic fence as a call to examine what it is that such people are thinking about; after all, since we can't follow their (contradictory) results, the only thing left is to follow their respective lines of reasoning and come to our own conclusions.

As you have pointed out, of course, there are other factors besides reasoning and evidence that go into making a decision; you describe the gut feeling and the jump that one makes when deciding to trust a future spouse. However, this is the sort of thing where, as they say, head and heart have to agree. You aren't going to take a leap of faith to trust someone when you don't have at least your mind's provisional consent--it has to be, "She's probably trustworthy," or "I think she really might be trustworthy," not "Everything I thought she was, she wasn't, and I don't know anything about her anymore."

This, I think, would serve as a useful topic of discussion, if only to explore why you can give Christianity at least your provisional consent while the people here typically do not, or cannot. The most natural outlet I see is the examination of rational evidence (one which is touched on in the other thread), but your time is of course your own.

Thanks for sticking with the discussion; I know it's time-consuming. Keep it up and you might be eligible for a Durable Theist award.