Tom in KC

We Christians can be our own worst enemies.

I have attempted to dispassionately reflect on what I have posted on this list in the past few days. Various things have been counterproductive to the goal that I have in being here – being a positive witness about my faith.

We Christians - on this list and out in the real world – sometimes:

Assume a lack of knowledge of scripture among non-Christians.

Vent about the behavior of non-Christians when they have passionately disagreed with us.

Oversimplify complex issues with Christian-speak platitudes that are only convincing to ourselves.

Brandish the bible as if everyone accepts its validity.

Drop “hit-and-run” condemnations without defending our points made, venturing to understand the people that we are arguing with, or (worst of all) judging.

Certainly, there are Christians who rarely, if ever, do any of the above. Yet, it hit me like a ton of bricks that, we need to be more loving/lovable in order to promote Jesus as a loving God incarnate. I would guess that most if not all of us were lead to faith by a believer who just loved us and didn’t pass judgement. They provided a good example of what it means to be a Christian. I would also guess that none us are now Christians because of a “you’re going to burn in Hell” warning.

I can’t speak for all Christians, but the fact is many of us struggle with parts of the bible, and whether it is truly inerrant. We struggle to justify God’s role in Old Testament stories of brutality. We wish faith was easy, and that we never had doubts. I think it might be easier to be honest about these things, or no one – especially here – will really take us seriously. Thoughts?

ex-idaho

"I would guess that most if not all of us were lead to faith by a believer who just loved us and didn’t pass judgement. They provided a good example of what it means to be a Christian."

Tom, I would guess that you are including yourself in this statement. Please don't take this the wrong way but it sounds like you became a Christian because of acceptance. You found someone that would accept you if you would accept Christ. If I am wrong please enlighten me.

Seriously Tom I would like to know why you believe in any God much less the Xian one?

Anunnaki

I think I probably speak for most of us here when I say that the problem is with the product you`re pushing and has little if anything to do with the promotion tactics.

Offer Jesus to us politely,rudely or with a cherry on top and a cashiers check for a thousand dollars,but it will never be accepted because the claims of Christianity are not real and not even a plausible possibilty.

<edited to make the point clearer.>

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]</p>

David Gould

I would say that promotion tactics are extremely important.

If the Christian believes that their position is the true one then the consequence is that all non-believers will burn in hell for eternity.

If the Christian is a truly moral person, they will see that this is the worst possible outcome imaginable for the unbeliever.

Thus, any methods which serve to distance the unbeliever from the possibility of salvation (like the ones mentioned in the opening post) are contributing to the likelihood of that person suffering a horrible eternal fate.

The Christian is thus morally obligated to use methods which are conducive to bringing someone closer to salvation. Anything which has the possibility of alienating the umbeliever must be eliminated. the price of failure is too high for any moral being to contemplate.

I do not think that Christianity is true; I believe it to be a logical impossibility. (This is actually why I like Albert and Amos - I enjoy their style). However, I used to be a Christian and I have some sort of vague understanding of what drives Christians to witness to others. As an atheist, I think it should be a moral imperative for all Christians who believe in a literal Hell to witness. How they do so should also be governed by this same moral imperative.

Muad'Dib

So can anyone, really. IMHO, some unbelievers (I'm not thinking of anyone on these boards) who purposefully try to be abrasive toward theists undercut a lot of their own credibility.

Do you see this as a problem, and if so, how so? Personally I think this sort of thing is a human tendency, and that just about everyone needs to express frustration once in a while. Granted, it may happen sometimes in inappropriate times or places, but I don't think it's bad in and of itself.

True enough.

Some have done this, but (so far as I know) you have not. I don't have the slightest inclination to blame you for what other people have done; the fact that you might use the same label to describe yourselves is (IMO) not relevant.

With no disrespect intended, I see you as communicating not what kind of deity you serve, but what sort of person you are. There is a gaping chasm between "I'm a decent person" (which I think you probably are, from what little I know of you) and "the God I believe in actually exists," a gap I tried desperately for several years to jump, without success.

I submit my father as a counterexample (though that isn't why he remained Christian). Also, IIRC, Jonathan Edwards' Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God was instrumental in the conversion of many. Many of the Churches of Christ, too, were founded by itinerant preachers who rode from town to town preaching (among other things) that God would only accept those who worshipped him properly; they were typically not around long enough to serve as mentors to individual believers.

But your point is taken; in general, kindness is far more influential than castigation or rejection.

Dishonest people, regardless of their beliefs, are usually not taken seriously once they are found out. I'd say this is good advice for anyone.

(grammar)

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Muad'Dib ]</p>

Triple Six

Tom

You may be the nicest person in the world for all I know but what you are pushing is wrong, completely unacceptable to an atheist. Think about this; would you buy a wrecked old car from your best friend when you can buy a brand new latest model for one tenth of the price he's offering from someone you don't know? In the end it's the product what counts.

I'm happy to agree to disagree with someone on religion providing they do likewise and keep off the subject. However if they persist in pushing it at me then they are fair game and I don't feel there's any need to hold back in telling them like it really is

Orpheous99

Just because you say you love us still won't make us believe in god any more than if you didn't say it. We don't base our beliefs on emotions, but on facts. Faith is meaningless without facts.

HelenM

Tom, actually I was just mentioning this topic to my husband and he said "But most people at your church don't really believe the Bible is inerrant, do they?" (he's an atheist himself so he doesn't go)

I really think they do, though. Here's what my church <a href="http://www.calvarymemorial.com/calvary/faith.asp" target="_blank">articles of faith</a> say:

I don't know what church tradition you're from. I know that this is a key doctrine for many Christians.

As for what you said about Christians, I think you are opening up dialogue and that's good. Whether you are 'nicer' than the rest remains to be seen, probably by whether you get angry when your faith is disagreed with here - not only disagreed with but quite probably made fun of...how will you react then? I've seen lots of Christians get angry here. Even though it was their choice to come here and presumably they might have been able to anticipate how respectful of their faith people here are likely to be. I think that is a pretty bad witness.

But anyway, I'm glad people are already pointing out to you that they are convinced of the falsehood of Christianity.

They probably hold a view which is neatly diametrically opposed to yours: you think that people accept Christianity for rational reasons and resist it for emotional ones. They think the opposite. Perhaps the truth is somewhere inbetween .

I think we all want to believe what is true and would reject something we knew was untrue no matter how nice the messenger is.

But I would say that Christians further invalidate their message when they do not seem to have the character or love of Christ (as they understand it and proclaim it to be) but yet assert "Christ lives in me".

love
Helen

(edited to fix link)

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>

doc58

Tom in KC,

First, I am still waiting for your reply in the Paul Doland faith thread regarding my proof that the Bible is not inerrant and infallible.

Second, I read your little essay with sadness. You again remind me of my former self. And you are like almost all other committed Christians. You feel guilty that you aren't "doing Christianity right". That if you just did things better, whether loving others, reading your Bible, praying more that you would see better results, have more inner peace, etc. You may feel additional guilt because the rational part of your brain is struggling with the fact that maybe some of the things that are brought up here are valid and you don't know what to do with that because it feels like you are being unfaithful to God.
So you blame yourself for our lack of belief in Christianity- "if only I loved people more.

Do you see that other people that your theology says will be brutally tortured forever love others just as much and as effectively as some Christians? If a Buddhist loves me does that mean he is showing me the love of Buddha and so I should be a Buddhist?

You seem like a nice guy. I encourage you to keep reading the Bible and ask yourself as you read, "Is this passage consistent with what I believe a good God is like? Do Gods actions also reflect my own sense of what is good since God's goodness should certainly be higher than mine?
When I see God rejecting people with birth defects and other abnormalites in the OT by not allowing them full religious temple privileges, does that reflect the God I have in my mind? When I see Gods command that a rapist and his victim must marry if she is not engaged, do I see a GOd who understands the nature of sexual predators and how that poor women is being sentenced to a lifetime of rape? When I see God command Hosea to marry a prostitute as an example of Israels unfaithfulness or read about God deliberately killing Ezekiels wife and telling him not to mourn, am I seeing a God who upholds the sanctity
of marriage?"
I challenge you to ask the hard questions about the scriptures. Best wishes.

-DM-

I think that you will find that the nontheists here want much more if they are going to believe. I think that they are going to tend to want convincing evidence and argument as to why they should believe. I seriously doubt if "loving/lovable" will cut it here.

If this were the "prime mover" for me to convert to belief in one of the so-called revealed religions, I think I would reject Christianity in favor of what many Christians think of as a cult: namely, Mormonism. The Mormons whom I have known have the advantage over the Christians whom I have known in terms of being a good example of what it means to be a decent "Christian" human being.

--Don--