Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Pandora · 04-09-2002, 01:17 AM

Last night I was watching Stargate, which is one of the more watchable of Italian programmes, however it is very much aimed at the lowest common denominator and tends to back the most "magical" of answers rather than the most scientific or rational.

They featured a new city that has been discovered underwater off the coast of India, which appears to predate existing evidence of civilizations by several thousand years. It was not a little village, but a city with what looked like advanced building structures. With carbon dating they are getting results for about 9000 years old.

I'm not sure if this belongs here or in B&A, but if this turns out to be what they say, won't it effectively screw up the idea of a 6000 year old earth?

liquid · 04-09-2002, 02:59 AM

There are plenty of societies around the world that have histories older than 6000 BC. This is probably better off in B&A though, and I'll leave it to the experts to give you the best examples.

Oolon Colluphid · 04-09-2002, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by liquid:
There are plenty of societies around the world that have histories older than 6000 BC. This is probably better off in B&A though, and I'll leave it to the experts to give you the best examples.

Agreed, better in BC&A. Moving now...

Oolon

Alexis Comnenus · 04-09-2002, 04:40 AM

Pandora,

The 'city' may just be natural formations but wood carbon dated to 9000BC has been pulled up by divers. Graham Hancock presented a series of Channel 4 plugging the theory that an ancient civilisation, of which this is part, was flooded in the ice age.

His book is called Underworld: (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0718144007)

Personally, I take the view that any idea presented by Hancock is de facto wrong but I do admire a guy who has been debunked so often doggedly plodding on with new theories.

Regards

Alex

lpetrich · 04-09-2002, 09:05 AM

I'm not sure how well that city claim will hold up. But that C-14 date is calibrated with something that has held up very well: dendrochronology (tree-ring dating).

That technique is to look for some place with lots of old dead trees, and then to compare their patterns of growth, as determined from their ring thicknesses. If two trees at some place were alive at the same time, then their growth patterns will closely match.

Some of the favorite places to look for dead trees are the mountains of southwest US, where the long-lived bristlecone pines live, and in bogs in Ireland and Germany. From these places, a continuous, overlapping sequence of trees has been found that goes back 9000 years.

Thus, the Universe is older than 9000 years, and no planetwide flood has happened in that time.

Also, the icecaps of Greenland and Antarctica have annual layers that go back something like 100,000 years.

Toto · 04-09-2002, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexis Comnenus:

His book is called Underworld: <a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0718144007/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0718144007/internetinfidelsA</a>

Amazon US doesn't seem to list it, but they have a number of other "alternative history" books by Hancock.

Tim Thompson · 04-09-2002, 01:48 PM

The Indian discovery is quite recent, and appears to have not yet made it into any of the archeological journals. There seem to be only a few news reports and webpages.

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1768000/1768109.stm" target="_blank">BBC News report, january 19, 2002</a>
<a href="http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Ruins_in_the_Gulf_of_Cambay" target="_blank">Ruins in the Gulf of Cambay</a> (from wikipedia, "the free encyclopedia").

The BBC news report makes remarks about how this will force a re-writing of human history, but I think the force of the discovery is rather overstated. The ruins at <a href="http://catal.arch.cam.ac.uk/catal/catal.html" target="_blank">�atalh�y�k</a> have been known and excavated for years. The oldest radiocarbon dates from the site date from roughly 9500 years ago (7500 BC calibrated, see <a href="http://catal.arch.cam.ac.uk/catal/Newsletter8/news8.html" target="_blank">newsletter 8</a>, December 2001).

Marduk · 04-09-2002, 03:05 PM

This doesn't really surprise me much, they have uncovered temples in the mountains around Turkey and Kurdistan nearly as old.

Dr. Jagan Mohan · 04-18-2002, 02:29 AM

The recent discovery of the 'Seven Pagodas' Legend Come true is sure to send the Bible thumping xtians running for cover.. :chukling

Here is the source:<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1923000/1923794.stm" target="_blank">BBC South Asia</a>

Expedition leader Monty Halls said: "Our divers were presented with a series of structures that clearly showed man-made attributes.

"The scale of the site appears to be extremely extensive, with 50 dives conducted over a three-day period covering only a small area of the overall ruin field.

During the expedition to the site, divers came across structures believed to be man-made. One of the buildings appears to be a place of worship.

Scientists now want to explore the possibility that the city was submerged following the last Ice Age. If this proves correct, it would date the settlement at more than 5,000 years old.

[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: Dr. Jagan Mohan ]

Answerer · 04-18-2002, 04:30 AM

Well guys, I think that the oldest civilizations are the Sumerians who are believed to be dated from 10000B.C to 2000B.C. Of course, I seriously hope that all these old civilizations are true for they wil definately make the creationists swallow back all their theories.

04-09-2002, 01:17 AM	#1
Pandora Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: UK Posts: 367	9000 year old city in India? Last night I was watching Stargate, which is one of the more watchable of Italian programmes, however it is very much aimed at the lowest common denominator and tends to back the most "magical" of answers rather than the most scientific or rational. They featured a new city that has been discovered underwater off the coast of India, which appears to predate existing evidence of civilizations by several thousand years. It was not a little village, but a city with what looked like advanced building structures. With carbon dating they are getting results for about 9000 years old. I'm not sure if this belongs here or in B&A, but if this turns out to be what they say, won't it effectively screw up the idea of a 6000 year old earth?

04-09-2002, 01:48 PM	#7
Tim Thompson Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Pasadena, CA, USA Posts: 455	The Indian discovery is quite recent, and appears to have not yet made it into any of the archeological journals. There seem to be only a few news reports and webpages. <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1768000/1768109.stm" target="_blank">BBC News report, january 19, 2002</a> <a href="http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Ruins_in_the_Gulf_of_Cambay" target="_blank">Ruins in the Gulf of Cambay</a> (from wikipedia, "the free encyclopedia"). The BBC news report makes remarks about how this will force a re-writing of human history, but I think the force of the discovery is rather overstated. The ruins at <a href="http://catal.arch.cam.ac.uk/catal/catal.html" target="_blank">�atalh�y�k</a> have been known and excavated for years. The oldest radiocarbon dates from the site date from roughly 9500 years ago (7500 BC calibrated, see <a href="http://catal.arch.cam.ac.uk/catal/Newsletter8/news8.html" target="_blank">newsletter 8</a>, December 2001).

04-18-2002, 02:29 AM	#9
Dr. Jagan Mohan Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Presently on the 'move' :) Posts: 98	The recent discovery of the 'Seven Pagodas' Legend Come true is sure to send the Bible thumping xtians running for cover.. :chukling Here is the source:<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1923000/1923794.stm" target="_blank">BBC South Asia</a> Expedition leader Monty Halls said: "Our divers were presented with a series of structures that clearly showed man-made attributes. "The scale of the site appears to be extremely extensive, with 50 dives conducted over a three-day period covering only a small area of the overall ruin field. During the expedition to the site, divers came across structures believed to be man-made. One of the buildings appears to be a place of worship. Scientists now want to explore the possibility that the city was submerged following the last Ice Age. If this proves correct, it would date the settlement at more than 5,000 years old. [ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: Dr. Jagan Mohan ]</p>

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04-09-2002, 02:59 AM	#2
liquid Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: UK Posts: 1,440	There are plenty of societies around the world that have histories older than 6000 BC. This is probably better off in B&A though, and I'll leave it to the experts to give you the best examples.

04-09-2002, 04:40 AM	#4
Alexis Comnenus Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: UK Posts: 63	Pandora, The 'city' may just be natural formations but wood carbon dated to 9000BC has been pulled up by divers. Graham Hancock presented a series of Channel 4 plugging the theory that an ancient civilisation, of which this is part, was flooded in the ice age. His book is called Underworld: (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0718144007) Personally, I take the view that any idea presented by Hancock is de facto wrong but I do admire a guy who has been debunked so often doggedly plodding on with new theories. Regards Alex

04-09-2002, 09:05 AM	#5
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I'm not sure how well that city claim will hold up. But that C-14 date is calibrated with something that has held up very well: dendrochronology (tree-ring dating). That technique is to look for some place with lots of old dead trees, and then to compare their patterns of growth, as determined from their ring thicknesses. If two trees at some place were alive at the same time, then their growth patterns will closely match. Some of the favorite places to look for dead trees are the mountains of southwest US, where the long-lived bristlecone pines live, and in bogs in Ireland and Germany. From these places, a continuous, overlapping sequence of trees has been found that goes back 9000 years. Thus, the Universe is older than 9000 years, and no planetwide flood has happened in that time. Also, the icecaps of Greenland and Antarctica have annual layers that go back something like 100,000 years.

04-09-2002, 03:05 PM	#8
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	This doesn't really surprise me much, they have uncovered temples in the mountains around Turkey and Kurdistan nearly as old.

04-18-2002, 04:30 AM	#10
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Well guys, I think that the oldest civilizations are the Sumerians who are believed to be dated from 10000B.C to 2000B.C. Of course, I seriously hope that all these old civilizations are true for they wil definately make the creationists swallow back all their theories.

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