cydonia

Language Reform? I've never heard of that concept. Man, i've been here a few days and already i'm thinking of Christianity as a "cult". Usually i was afraid to even think that thought. But I see no one pulls punches here. I might become corrupted sooner than i thought

I've read this whole thread, and it just brings up old frustrations for me. The ONLY reason i would have ever become Born Again is to AVOID eternal torment. I would only become a Christian out of FEAR. Now you're telling me that i can still think my own thoughts , question man's revision of history, and the only punishment is one night i go to sleep and never ever get to the dream phase? Nothing for eternity? Sign me up! That actually does seem more merciful on God's part.

In my experience, when you hear a Christian say, usually at the end of a discussion, "Well, i don't know either. I understand how you feel. But God's ways are not our ways. We must have faith that his Reasons will be revealed in the end" or whatever, it usually means they are throwing in the towel for the day. I mean they just STOP. It's bizarre. And of course i end up feeling guilty for questioning our Lord. "Who the hell do you think you are, you think you are more moral than God? NOT!" But sometimes i really do think i'm more moral, or at least more compassionate, than the NT blood God. Is this pride? Who knows.

BTW, has the analogy of the cat or dog running out into traffic after you told him not to ever worked on converting anyone? I'm sure you know what i'm talking about.

Theli

And how can anyone believe/trust in a god whose "love for us" seems alien/random/indifferent to us?

Quote from Simpsons (A meteor is heading for earth): Look, god has send his big killrock to show us his love.

The Other Michael

That sounds pretty difficult to me. If they successfully show the OT god is different from the NT god, then Moses didn't get the 10C from the current NT god (for one example). So how can they justify following the 10C (whichever version they pick) since that was from what must be a false god?

Let's not be changing dieties in midstream.

The more I see of apologetics, the less I understand.

cheers,
Michael

Typhon

Somewhat OT:

Luvluv,

Aside from not liking to type your name, my only real problem with you is that to me, you appear to constantly dodge and/or ignore my key questions, and yet you act as if you've answered them.

If you are UNABLE to stand up to the questions I pose, then admit it, and move on to the next one. If you are UNWILLING to answer, then simply state so, and I will respect your right, but it will mean that I can't possibly take your continued arguments on that point seriously.

To consistently do neither, leaves me feeling that you are either being purposefully argumentative, sans the intellectual honesty to actually pursue your argument (i.e. you're just a troll), or you are unwilling to admit that your arguments contain flaws or problems that you have not addressed, or perhaps, can not, based on the scope of your current philosophy. In either case, this is very irritating as I generally spend both effort and time, honestly and thoughtfully considering both your argument, and the questions they often raise, before replying to you. That I perceive you are not doing this in return, makes me wonder, why bother?

I have no need, wish, or interest to insult you on a personal level. However, I also have little patience for someone who is obviously wasting my time and the time of others, who is either one or the other of the type of debaters I mentioned above.

If I am in error here, and this is purely because I'm failing to communicate my questions properly, then I apologize profusely. If not, then my objections to your "hit and retreat" style of debate, stand.

.T.

luvluv

The "back to be insulted later" bit was just tongue in cheek, folks. I like it when you insult me, that means I'm winning

Typhon, I already explained to you why I'm absent for long periods of time on this board. It is a good rule of thumb not to expect any response from me for about 36 hours after I post something. Patience is a virtue.

And I really don't know what thread you are talking about, the last I was here I had the last comment on all of the threads we were participating in.

Typhon

Luvluv,

Take all the time you want to answer a post, what I'm objecting to is exactly what you said you've already done:
Exactly. Having the "last comment" is NOT even remotely the same thing as answering a tough question. So far, more than a few of your "last comments" have consisted of ignoring the points that I and other posters have made regarding the many flaws in your arguments, inferring that by NOT answering them, you've somehow replied to them, and that you win, we agree, and now what's everybody so confused about?

Here's an example of what I mean…
To which I said specifically:
I then asked a few more questions, reminded you of several points you had not addressed yet to my satisfaction, but this is the response I got.
Does this mean you agree with ME? Because, I certainly don't indicate anywhere that I agree with you. One of us has to you know, or else it's a disagreement, sheesh.

.T.

[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

luvluv

I answered you on the other thread, but I'll repeat it over here.

I have CONSISTENTLY said that God IS detectable BY FAITH. I HAVE detected God, BY FAITH. He communicates to me BY FAITH. It is logical for me to believe in God, because I have detected Him by the one means that He is detectable.

It does not make any sense to believe in something you have not detected. I don't do that. I believe in a God I have detected by faith.

The fact that He is not detectable scientifcally has no bearing on my beliefs. I have already detected Him by faith.

"I can't do no more"

- Barry Sobel, 1988.

Typhon

Thank you for answering, now we're getting somewhere.

So your hypothetical god IS detectable, "by FAITH."

So what then, do you define faith as? Did you, as I asked before, just wake up one day, with no prior exposure to any theists teachings, with no contact/reason, personal or external, to a god like entity, and just decide, that your hypothetical god did exist?

And what is this stuff about "scientific" means of detection? We've been arguing for a detectable god, period. If you have managed to "detect" god, you should be apply to apply the scientific method to that detection process. Science isn't somehow something different from your own senses, it's just a process (partial definition here) by which the things detected by your senses, and theorized by your mind, may or may not be shown to be valid, likely, or the reverse.

So, how have you detected god? A voice, a feeling, a hand grabbing you by your collar and shaking you? Has your contact with this god figure repeated itself? What are the circumstances where and when you've felt you detected the existence of god? What has led you to think that these "detections" are not just delusions, biased wishing on your part, or simply, pure error?

Well, I'll let you get started with that for now, and see where you go with it.

.T.

luvluv

"Thank you for answering, now we're getting somewhere."

Typhon, my good sweet gooey special friend, I've said that a hundred times. Are you telling me that if you would have read that, oh, about 3 pages ago, we could have avoided all this?

Defining faith is a big issue, too big for this thread, which perhaps now we can finally agree is over? Because defining my faith is a seperate issue.

excreationist

I haven't read all of the thread, but just some comments:

(according to the Bible) The people of the world will be separated into *two* groups:
Matthew 25:32-33:
All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

those who go to paradise:
Matthew 25:34:
Then the King will say to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

and those who are eternally punished:
Matthew 25:41,46:
Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."...Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

So the condemned (non-saved) people suffer the same punishment as Satan.

Revelation 14:9-11, 20:10,12-15
If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.
...And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
...The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So all the bad things (worshippers of the beast, the devil, death, Hades, demons, the evil dead, etc) were thrown into the fire.

I think it is basically a garbage dump - the devil, death and Hades, etc, are thrown there so they don't bother those in paradise. It doesn't necessarily mean that death kills everyone that is in there - those who are judged are supposed to be eternally punished anyway.

I think death would be unable to do his job while in the lake of fire... it would be like people on earth during the last days

Revelation 9:6
During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

Earlier I said that Satan and most humans would suffer the same punishment. If this punishment simply involves burning up into a cinder in a couple seconds or minutes then it isn't a very severe punishment for Satan.

Also, here's some links that talk more about the duration of hell (or the lake of fire):
<a href="http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0085a.html" target="_blank">Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell
Part One</a> <a href="http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0137a.html" target="_blank">Part Two</a>