luvluv

No, not about that.

A quote that somebody gave about the lake of fire sort of changed my opinion about hell. I'll need to look somethings up to be sure though.

The passage he quoted to me caused me to remember that Hell is mentioned seperately from the Lake of Fire in the book of Revelation. I seem to remember a passage from the book of Revelation that states that both death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire.

Now, I still think Hell is a natural consequence, but the decision to throw Hell (and I assume everyone in it) into the Lake of Fire might be a way of God causing those in Hell to cease to exist. I would argue that in not having their free will, they would have functionally ceased to exist anywyay. This decision to destroy the soul rather than have it endure everlasting torment may be a state imposed by God, but in a way it is done out of mercy.

Anyway, I'm going home now and I will look that passage up and see if I need to update my ideas.

I'll be back to be insulted later.

x-member

Yet God is love!

Let me get this right... God creates man, hates man, gives birth to himself, tortures and kills himself, to save man, who he's going to send to hell if they don't buy that crock of shit.

Zeus makes so much more sense.

MadMordigan

I'll be back to be insulted later.

I'm sorry if you feel insulted, luvluv. But the entire idea of your god is silly. You need a creator to creat the world He needs to be all good in order to deserve worship. We need to have free will in order to explain evil. We need to have 'character' in order to make sense of free will. We need to have hell for those people who lack character to go to.

Why not just save all that and say "I don't know?" Not only is it easier, its more accurate.

Viti

I argue that feeling insulted and persecuted is a natural consequence of holding silly unprovable beliefs and perpetuating ridiculous myths.

bonduca

Feeling on the defensive also helps make some silly beliefs seem more exciting.

DRFseven

Um, yes, you do. All of them.

You act as if you are offended that your looney ideas are not respected; it's because they are far from respectable, at least for an adult. I assume you're an adult since you mentioned having a child.

Pomp

luvluv,

I'll be back to be insulted later.

I apologize for any insults that you have received here. I realize that it's difficult to defend a point of view by oneself in a place that is hostile to that point of view. I wouldn't take the insults too personally, if I were you. I don't think that most of us bear any grudge toward you, personally, I know that I don't. Many of us find it quite frustrating, however, to relate to someone who, while seeming to be a perfectly rational person about every other topic imaginable, insists on grasping at straws and engaing in compex mental gymnastics to justify belief in an ancient mythology.

I'm not excusing the actions of anyone who has been intentionally rude to you. If you feel that anyoen has violated the forum rules in insulting you, please feel free to send me a private mesage. WHat I am trying to do here is explain what it looks like from this side. I suppose the closest analogy I can make is to ask you to imagine how the congregation would react if your church was visited by a seemingly intelligent and very earnest person who presented a complex ad hoc rationalization for belief in leprechauns or tree sprites.

Edit: Note that I am not saying that the case for the existence of your god is comparable to the case for the existence of leprechauns or tree sprites. I'm not touching that in this thread. I am saying that we view the earnestness with which you believe in Yahweh in the same light as I imagine you would view the earnestness of someone who truly believed in tree sprites.

[ April 13, 2002: Message edited by: Pompous Bastard ]</p>

Wyrdsmyth

luvluv,

Actually, if it's any consolation... back in the days when I was a believer, I read that passage in Revelations the same way you as you presented it. Which was that Hell was not eternal, and all the sinners and rebel angels were cast into the Lake of Fire at the "end of days" which effectively obliterated them -- causing them no more anguish, but to cease to exist.

But this seems to me kind of irrelevant to the issue of whether god exists or not in the first place. What is your point? That this somehow helps to 'justify' the whole worldview, in some way? That it mollifies the arguments from evil to God's non-existence? That it somehow makes your god appear a bit more fair and merciful?

HelenM

luvluv

I apologize for my antagonistic posts.

love
Helen

Zenaphobe

It would seem to me that if Hell and the people in it were going to be obliterated anyway, whats the point of Hell to begin with?

Is it a type of tourture before extermination?

Why not just obliterate people after death and spare the fire and brimstone part?