Jobar

"Every church that has a standard higher than human welfare is dangerous." - Robert Ingersoll

In the time I've been on this forum, I've seen both good and bad believers come here. David Mathews, Radorth, jo-jo sa, Vanderzyden- those of you who've not been here long, look up those names and read some of their posts. Whatever you believe or don't believe, hatred and bitterness and bigotry and self-righteousness blights their every word.

Oh, there are good ones, too. Wildernesse, seebs, Rev. Joshua (has anyone heard from the good Reverend lately?), HelenM- and from knowing them a rather short time, I am willing to put both BGiC and Rational BAC, here, in that category.

There are many more- in both categories.

And I think what divides them is that statement by Ingersoll. The ones who see their religion as being *for* people, are normally good and decent, even though from my own POV and experience they are mistaken to hold the beliefs they do.

But when they hold their religion higher than the good of the human beings they meet, and let the love of their God outweigh the love for their fellow men and women, then you start seeing the madness and evil which lurks underneath the mask of good.

Tenek

Sometimes, I have a moment of clarity on an issue. Here's today's:

"My pastor preached a sermon on the church at Laodicea last night. I am afraid so many Christians fit into the lukewarm category. No finger pointing, but if the shoe fits wear it, so to speak.

14. "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.
15. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
16. So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
17. You say, `I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
18. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
20. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
21. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
22. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." -Lanakila, CF http://www.christianforums.com/t47065&page=7 #62)

The perfect quote.

Converting to Christianity is the worst thing I could do at this point. It's no longer enough to believe in Jesus Christ as one's Saviour, but now I have to be a fundementalist as well? Why bother antagonizing the atheists when I'll still have to deal with the Christians?

On a slightly more OT point... Fundementalism is going to be the death of Christianity if they don't separate. Imagine the religion as a man trying to swim across a river... taking a decent stroke and going at a fair clip. Now, Young-Earth Creationism and Biblical Inerrancy, miserable swimmers, grab ahold of the man and prevent him from moving. If he doesn't get rid of them, he's gonna drown. Same deal with Xianity as a whole.

Rational BAC

Exactly what part of the Bible did that quote come from? I assume, at least at the end, it is Jesus speaking. But it is hard to tell anything out of context.

Does somewhat remind me of Goldwater. "extremism is a virtue" or some such damned thing-------- and of Bush 2----"You are either with us or against us."----------both of which sayings are infantile.

Hey------ I am a cherry picker Christian anyway. If Jesus did say that purportedly then I will consider it before I pitch it (I love the word purportedly---it comes in so handy.) If someone else said it then I will just pitch it without considering it.

Doctor X

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice." is what I think Goldwater said. He may have extended it to something like "moderation at the expense of liberty is no virtue." I am not sure.

However, George the Younger's statement refers to those who oppose the opposition of terrorists; hardly congruent.

Then, again:

"Wisemen write proverbs; fools repeat them."

--J.D.

BadBadBad

She thinks she's doing the right thing by pressing the issue of religion like she is. She thinks it's her duty to do what she's doing mostly with the kids, but with me also.

But look at the effect. The effect is exactly Matthew 10:34-35 as has already been quoted. The effect is Matthew 11:13-15 as I have posted. What little hope of converting me is dashed on the rocks into little pieces. The effect is that she has an ardent opponent when it comes to teaching the children about religion. The effect is that it takes our marriage to the verge of distruction. All of those effects are in contradiction to the stated goals of a christian wife married to an atheist husband. It defeats all her purposes, yet she fundamentally opposed to budging an inch on it. She has to budge, but it is totally against her core principals.

Maybe she needs to meet you RBAC. Your beliefs and I think your approach would not be offensive to me. I think I could work with someone like you to agree on a mutually acceptable approach to teaching our children about religion. That approach could still run into some fundamental problems, but it would have more hope of keeping the peace and meeting both our needs and that of the children.

BadBadBad

Very very well said!

Aravnah Ornan

Fundamentalists who deconvert people will get one fewer ruby in their crowns. Those whom they deconvert will burn in Hell. Fair is fair.

Seriously, though, I once asked a true believer a similar question: If a Christian negligently taught someone false doctrine that would get that person damned to Hell, what would be the fate of the Christian and of the person who received the false doctrine? The true believer danced around the question for the longest time and finally muttered some vague invocation of irresistible grace.

Division By Zero

Is that some kind of weird snack food?

Treacle Worshipper

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Exactly what part of the Bible did that quote come from? I assume, at least at the end, it is Jesus speaking. But it is hard to tell anything out of context.

It is Revelation Chapter 3. Jesus (described in Ch. 1) is dictating letters to John, for him to send to the churches.

Hey------ I am a cherry picker Christian anyway. If Jesus did say that purportedly then I will consider it before I pitch it (I love the word purportedly---it comes in so handy.) If someone else said it then I will just pitch it without considering it.

Depends how much you feel you can rely on Revelation, I suppose.

TW

Cross Examiner

brettc, what can I say? You've got quite a sense for satire. Looks like fun.

Oh...you're that guy? I'll bet you've got a big swimming pool. You stand to make a lot of bling bling until the DOJ brings an anti-trust suit against your "True Christian™" licensing monopoly.

Yes. Yes I am the judge of all truth. Seriously though, didn't I only affirm your statement: "I go where I want" -- if so that'd make you the judge of truth and me your simple, adoring bailiff. I'm just the lowly doorman, your honor

A good deal of personal revelation and supernatural manifestation from God to man would be required to jump-start the Book about such things. We have the Book now and don't need any more pages so I doubt you'll get your own personal miracles. Besides, if miracles were daily events we'd come to disregard them or even consider them natural phenomena. Also, a lot of those examples you list above occurred during Jesus' ministry. Hm. So you'd only need to be one of the original twelve to believe? You're right, it doesn't take much for you! You're easy.

Conversely, take my growing list of events that'd cause me to reconsider:
-we discover Jesus Christ's remains (e.g. bones)
-we invent AI with a conscience and/or true self-awareness, not a just human mind simulation but truly adaptive and creative (e.g. Skynet on T3 or the machines of the Matrix etc.)
-we find authentic documentation that contradicts the theology of Paul or Peter or James or some other foundational personage
-we find authentic documentation that testifies counter to the Gospel, particularly regarding the resurrection (e.g letters from Caiaphas to his family that the resurrection was a hoax by the disciples etc.)
-we find authentic, trustworthy documentation that testifies that Paul the Apostle (or another foundational Christian like Peter or John etc.) was an immoral man, a hypocrite of some sort
-we prove, not just question or doubt (high burden here) any of the events or people or places the Bible speaks authoritatively on (e.g. archaeological discovery proves Ephesus was actually on the Peloponnesus, not Asia Minor) were fictitious.
-we discover sentient life, or sentient life discovers us (e.g. the movie "Signs")
-we discover another planet just like earth or very comparable at least (e.g. that Gas Giant, in recent news, twice as big as Jupiter doesn't do it for me, or ice on Mars, not even close)
-we find the "conscience" in the human genome
-we find that animals have consciences
-creation of life from chemicals (Miller-Urey? Not even close)
-resurrection of a corpse from purely physical input (e.g. Frankenstein's monster)

Falsifiable? You bet. In fact, I'd like to solicit ideas to further grow this list from you all. If you have one that I might add, let me know.
We have 9 wise souls in D.C. employed solely to interpret and apply a relatively straight-forward document yet there is always variance and dissention. It says what it says? The Bible speaks authoritatively on the most mysterious things man's mind may ever peruse, was originally written in Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek from 40 different authors across millennia and culture. It says what it says in English, interpreted by your modern 21st century American mind.
I notice you reference Romans 9 a lot, the predestination chapter of the Bible, which I've studied a good deal on. But since you don't want another's point of view, and your understanding of things is clearly right, I'll oblige your fair request and leave you to your rightness. Hope that philosophy works out for you partner

Take Care,
BGiC