MOJO-JOJO

Just breaks my heart to see how upset the folks at FoF are (boo hooo.....)

<a href="http://www.family.org/cforum/fnif/news/a0020785.html" target="_blank">No Accreditation for Cretinism</a>

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: MOJO-JOJO ]</p>

tgamble

A victory for reason and science. Of course, the cretinist cult will play this up for all it's worth. Those evil censoring evilutionists.

No doubt this kind of distortion will be typical.

S2Focus

This should be interesting to see what political strings get pulled to get this decision reversed. US Attorney Gen. John Ashcroft's wife is on the board of trustees for Patrick Henry College. See <a href="http://www.phc.edu/about/trustees/default.asp" target="_blank">http://www.phc.edu/about/trustees/default.asp</a> for details.

As it turns out, the American Academy for Liberal Education controls programs authorized under the federal Higher Education act (certain student loans and some research grant money). The AALE was given authority to accredit liberal-arts colleges a few years ago by the U.S. Dept. of Education. So we should expect plenty of (behind the scenes) political pressure from the Bush Administration to reverse the decision to deny accreditation. (This info was obtained <a href="http://news.crosswalk.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID74088%7CCHID194343%7CCIID1138722,00.html" target="_blank">from this article.</a>)


(Updated to add some info about the AALE)

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: S2Focus ]</p>

scigirl

I say, if they want to teach creationism in science classrooms, let em. That's right - encourage this behavior. However, to be supportive of 'equal time,' then scientists will come in and teach rational thought, logic, and science in Sunday School. Sounds fair to me.

scigirl

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: scigirl ]</p>

Duvenoy

Scigirl, I really believe that you're dead on the money. Let them give Creationism equal time.

Too often we think our kids lack the powers of reason. They most certainly do not. I think that if given both sides, more would realize that the Theory of Evolution answers questions far better than Creationism.

Ths assumes compentent teachers, of course. And I find it sad that education needs to be turned into a contest.

d

Coragyps

Competent and unbiased. Therein lies the rub. Just don't try it out here in the bible belt.

Duvenoy

I hear ya, Coragyps! I live here, too.

I did a conservattion presentation at an elementary school last week and took to it a couple of live Rattlesnakes, a Timber and an Eastern Diamondback. The kids were thrilled, as usual - both snakes are big, healthy ones, but the teachers reactions varied, especally when I touched upon the evolution of pit vipers (to me, the world's most amazing preditor). Two of them were struck with wonder and had many questions, but the third refused to speak to me after the show was over.

Around here, two out of three ain't bad at all!

I have another one, tentivly, coming up late next month at a library. If it goes down, it'll be a pretty big one. I, if not the snakes, am looking forward to it.

luck,

d

Dr.GH

re: rattler evolution

I very much like to usee buzz-tails for a quick intro to some evolutionary ideas.

1) the fangs did NOT evolve from solid teeth into hollow teeth via a tube running through the tooth. They evolved from a mesial groove that deepened and then folded. A gradual process with many living intermediates.

2) Snake venoms are just digestive enzymes. The main evolutionary “work” was just to
increase its’ production.

3) the rattlesnake’s rattle is evolved from a very simple function. No, it isn’t to warn
anyone; it is an attractant. Note that on the tail just ahead of the rattle scales are a
number of ringed color patterns (commonly black and white) that also add to the
visibility of the tail. I like to ask whether people would rather get punched in the nose or
the little toe, and then “Would the snake survive better if it were bit in the body of the
tail?” Even, 1st graders get the point. I have watched rattlesnakes begin an escape by
moving almost all their body but their tail either towards shelter or away from a threat.
When they get a bit stretched-out they often stop rattling and draw their tail into their new position.

Jimmy Higgins

I went to an accredited Catholic College. A really good one at that, as well. When are the yahoos going to figure out it isn't god we are after, but rather the truth. God and science can be held hand in hand. There are very many accredited and high standing religious colleges and universities that can attest to that. Why can't we all just get along?

Duvenoy

2) Snake venoms are just digestive enzymes. The main evolutionary “work” was just to
increase its’ production.

True to a point. However, although it is thought (I hate saying that) that as much as 30% of digeetion might be acomplished by the venom, assuming a soild hit, it makes little overall difference. Even if the prey is not envenomated, digestion goes on as it would in a Colubrid, and digestion is possibly the most energetic thing a snake does. I currently keep 14 venomous snakes and feed them almost excluivisivly pre-killed, thawed rodents. Unless teased into a feeding strike, they never envenomate.

The primary purpose for the venom is subduing prey, with the exception of the Gila Monsters (Heolderma suspectum). In these and the closely related Beaded Lizard, the venom is a defense mechanism (I find this truly strange). This last is known due to the highly inefficent means of delivery. No fangs other than normal teeth. The venom must flow down the gums and work in through the tooth wounds. No good for quickly killing prey, but I have it on excellent authority that it is very effective in making one let the lizard go. And that authority spent a number of very uncomfortable days to gain that information.

3) the rattlesnake’s rattle is evolved from a very simple function. No, it isn’t to warn
anyone; it is an attractant. Note that on the tail just ahead of the rattle scales are a
number of ringed color patterns (commonly black and white) that also add to the
visibility of the tail. I like to ask whether people would rather get punched in the nose or
the little toe, and then “Would the snake survive better if it were bit in the body of the
tail?” Even, 1st graders get the point. I have watched rattlesnakes begin an escape by
moving almost all their body but their tail either towards shelter or away from a threat.
When they get a bit stretched-out they often stop rattling and draw their tail into their new position.

Here, I must disagree. The 'coon tail' found on many rattlers such as the Western Diamondback (Crotalus atrox) and Mojave (C. scutaltus) is not found in most species - there are, at last count some 82 species and ssp, and this is changing as we speak. The DNA boys are breaking down the viridis (9 ssp.) and durissus (12 ssp.) complexs. For example, the Timber (C. horridus) and the Eastern Diamondback (C. adamanteus) have black tails; in the case of the Timber, the coloration goes 1/3 of the way up the body.

The brightly banded tails simply add a visual warning to the audible one.

At the age of 15, I learned a valuable lesson about the Easterns and their tails. I was out snake hunting in the palmetto scrub in S, GA, when I saw the final 1/4 of a fairly large (turned out to be a little over 4 feet) rattler going down a gopher tortise hole. I did what came naturally and ran over, grabbed it, and pulled. That snake's head came shooting out of the hole like it was rocket powered. To this day, I can't figure out how it missed me - I actually felt it scrape my forearm.

That was when I learned that they often will go only a little way into the hole, then turn, sort of watching the rest of the body as it comes in.

That snake stayed with me until I joined the Navy, when he was donated to the Grant Park Zoo in Atlanta along with a couple of others.

It is truly a pity that more is not known about serpent evolution. But the sad fact is that they are such delicate, fine-boned animals that good fossils are hard to come by.

Buzzworms Forever!!!

d