Freethought & Rationalism Archive

01-25-2003, 11:53 AM

The Independent's website seems to be down at the moment. This should normally link to the main website.

I note from the latest edition of the electronic newsletter of the National Secular Society (to subscribe go here) that the Vatican is now putting out an order to all catholic politicians that they must toe the catholic line on all political questions. See this I find I can't cut and paste from this document, but see in particular page 6.

Keith Porteous Wood of the NSS stated:

Quote:

Voters should know where their candidates stand. If a politician's actions are going to be dictated by the Vatican - or any other religious body - then this needs to be clearly stated before an election. Were this to be required, it would be less easy for politicians to attain power under false pretences and then act against the desires of the people who gave them that power, unaware of their true allegiances.

Also according to the NSS, there is a strong movement now in the USA to coerce catholic politicians to follow the Vatican line when voting on issues such as abortion.

d'naturalist · 01-25-2003, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DMB
Also according to the NSS, there is a strong movement now in the USA to coerce catholic politicians to follow the Vatican line when voting on issues such as abortion.

Isn't it highly illegal for an American politician to take orders from a foreign government?

copernicus · 01-25-2003, 08:42 PM

Wow, DMB, that's a scary thought. I can't imagine Europe embracing a non-secular constitution. On the other hand, one might think of it in a more positive light. If religious apathy were not so strong in Europe, then perhaps the churches might not have felt it necessary to make this effort.

I've long had a professional interest in the study of dying languages. One very noticeable trend that always accompanies language death is the appearance of social movements to preserve the language. If religion were truly strong, it would have nothing to fear from a secularist government. The Pope's effort may only succeed in reminding Europeans of their long, bloody history with religious interference in government affairs. Even if such a pro-religion principle were codified in a European constitution, I can't believe that it would make much difference to the way people live. It is only in America that you get "Onward Christian Soldier" to the accompaniment of goose-stepping.

lunachick · 01-26-2003, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nira
I tried spreading the word across some more European oriented BB�s some months ago, and the usual reaction was � so what?

Good on you for trying to spread the word, Nira.

I find people's apathy quite scary. It opens the path for fundamentalists to pave the 'Christian' way. The stupid thing is that Christians of all creeds can't get their shit together to 'love one another' within their differing biblical views, and to include "God" as part of what should be a humanist consitution is just asking for trouble.
If the apathetic aren't careful, they will find themselves very sorry indeed.

Shake · 01-27-2003, 10:40 AM

Something I read about this mentioned that the Poles, who are (IIRC) set to join in 2004, pushing for religious language as well.

Hugo, I found it humorous, while scanning the 3rd article you linked to, the section on constitutional precedents for religious language. This section quoted sections of such documents from Maine, Massachusetts, and other US states, as well as Sri Lanka, Japan, Mexico, Canada, etc. all of which, last I checked anyways, are NOT part of Europe! Granted there were some examples from European countries, but the great numbers of non-European based documents, to me, did not strengthen their case for inclusion of such language.

Copernicus, you make a very good point about the strength of religion to withstand the secular advance (or lack thereof).

Quote:

The stupid thing is that Christians of all creeds can't get their shit together to 'love one another' within their differing biblical views, and to include "God" as part of what should be a humanist consitution is just asking for trouble.

Ahh yes, the humanist concept. This is an idea I was pushing on another thread in ... umm, well one of the other forums around here. I'd be interested to see what would happen if one did a survey of people's reactions to humanist ideas, without mentioning the source. I bet it would be more favorable than you might think. Then it would be fun to drop the other shoe and tell them that these were ideas from a secular group on how things should be in the world.

Hugo Holbling · 01-27-2003, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shake
Hugo, I found it humorous ... *snip* ... did not strengthen their case for inclusion of such language.

No kidding. I tried to post a few links to show you guys what we're up against. :banghead: There's next to no chance of the French amending their separation of Church and State for this; in addition, you'd have to live here to appreciate how little folk are interested in religion, believers or not. It's no surprise that most of the campaigning is in Poland and Italy (is the Pope Catholic? - yes, and Polish too...), but if you look at the first link you'll see that even this won't help:

Quote:

(translation) non-believers are - whether one likes it or not - the real majority of Western Europe of 2000

This is from an Italian.

Now look to the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union:

Article 22:

Quote:

The Union shall respect cultural, religious and linguistic diversity.

Article 21:

Quote:

Any discrimination based on any ground such as *snip* religion or belief *snip* shall be prohibited.

Article 10:

Quote:

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right includes freedom to change religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or in private, to manifest religion or belief ...

Allow me to make a bold prediction: there is simply no way a reference to God will be put into the constitution in the light of these facts; if i'm wrong, the first legal challenge will nail it and force an amendment.

Nevertheless, this is no excuse to leave events to pass as they must. I've contacted my MEP and i encourage others to do so (or, if you're elsewhere, write them anyway, expressing your support for a constitution that maintains the separation of Church and State).

Toto · 02-05-2003, 11:39 AM

Europe Debates Whether to Admit God to Union

Quote:

. . .

The committee must sift through proposals that describe Europe's "spiritual heritage" and "God as the source of truth." They are then expected to draft a text that will form the basis of Article 2 of the future constitution, a paragraph reserved for a statement of European "values."

The debate is of keen interest to the Roman Catholic Church, which has lobbied for a reference to God, as well as organizations of Jews, Muslims and Protestants, who until now have been more muted in their opinions on the matter.

Supporters of a reference to God include delegates from Poland, Italy, Germany and Slovakia, some of whom have proposed the following text, "The union values include the values of those who believe in God as the source of truth, justice, good and beauty as well as of those who do not share such a belief but respect these universal values arising from other sources."

Opponents of the wording � many of whom say it would make a dangerous distinction between believers and nonbelievers � include delegates from France, the Netherlands, Spain and the Nordic countries.

. . .

Among some French delegates, a reference to God is seen as a throwback to the past and a breach of the sacred principle of a clear separation of Church and state that keeps religion out of politics.

But in Poland, a heavily Roman Catholic country where the church kept national aspirations alive under the Communist system and the government installed a crucifix in Parliament after that system crumbled, a reference to God in the European constitution would serve as a tribute to the church's role of resistance during Poland's decades as a Soviet satellite.

In Spain, a reference to God evokes the years under Franco, where coins were stamped with the dictator's profile, ringed by the words "Leader of Spain by the grace of God."

Grad Student Humanist · 02-05-2003, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hugo Holbling
in addition, you'd have to live here to appreciate how little folk are interested in religion, believers or not.

Must be so nice to live in a country like that.

Toto · 02-05-2003, 03:17 PM

Another article:

Giscard against religious reference in Constitution

Quote:

Val�ry Giscard d'Estaing has formally opened the debate on the place of religion in the future EU constitution. In an interview with the German weekly, Die Zeit, the Convention president let it be known that he is against a reference to God in the future text.

The question of whether a reference should be made to Europe's "religious heritage" is one of the most contentious issues in the Convention on the future of Europe, which is currently drawing up a constitution. Mr Giscard, reports Der Standard, conceded that Europeans have a religious heritage but that they live in a purely secular-political system where religion does not play a role.

Have the Europeans been reading American conservatives justification for ceremonial godliness? The religious heritage of Europe includes numerous wars (some where the corpses are still warm), not to mention pogroms, crusades, concentration camps, burning of heritics at the stake, etc. The religious heritage of Europe inspired America's First Amendment.

What are they thinking?

Shai Hulud · 02-07-2003, 06:16 AM

BBC News

I like this: "The draft states that among its main objectives are peace, "the well-being of peoples", competitiveness and the "discovery of space"."

I can't say that it really worried me. For most Wester Europeans religion is (if the care at all) a private thing.

Shai-Hulud

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01-25-2003, 08:42 PM	#13
copernicus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Bellevue, WA Posts: 1,531	Wow, DMB, that's a scary thought. I can't imagine Europe embracing a non-secular constitution. On the other hand, one might think of it in a more positive light. If religious apathy were not so strong in Europe, then perhaps the churches might not have felt it necessary to make this effort. I've long had a professional interest in the study of dying languages. One very noticeable trend that always accompanies language death is the appearance of social movements to preserve the language. If religion were truly strong, it would have nothing to fear from a secularist government. The Pope's effort may only succeed in reminding Europeans of their long, bloody history with religious interference in government affairs. Even if such a pro-religion principle were codified in a European constitution, I can't believe that it would make much difference to the way people live. It is only in America that you get "Onward Christian Soldier" to the accompaniment of goose-stepping.

02-07-2003, 06:16 AM	#20
Shai Hulud Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Belgium Posts: 165	BBC News I like this: "The draft states that among its main objectives are peace, "the well-being of peoples", competitiveness and the "discovery of space"." I can't say that it really worried me. For most Wester Europeans religion is (if the care at all) a private thing. Shai-Hulud

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