Freethought & Rationalism Archive

01-23-2003, 04:50 AM

The European Union is currently trying to come up with a constitution (evidently a step on the way to creating a superstate). Regardless of whether one thinks that the EU needs a constitution, it is probably going to get one.

It now emerges that the Vatican and some other churches are lobbying hard to get "God" into the constitution. I think it is very important that those of us who are Europeans should do everything possible to resist this, by protesting in the media and lobbying MPs, MEPs, etc.

This article by Joan Smith covers the objections very well, IMO.

Quote:

But the argument about whether to include religion in the EU constitution goes beyond questions of history. It is also about the role of Christianity in societies where many people � a minority, but a very significant one � neither believe in God nor wish to see a belief in supernatural beings given official status. This is not an attempt to deny anyone religious freedom, which is already (and rightly) enshrined in various European conventions and treaties, but to argue that institutionalising religion in this way is both unnecessary and offensive.

For while there are many values on which believers and non-believers can agree � democracy, freedom of expression, freedom from torture and other degrading treatment � it is not the case that all elements of Christian morality are either universal or uncontentious. The churches' teachings on contraception, abortion and homosexuality are unacceptable to many of us, who would like to see religious thinkers have less influence, not more, on matters of social policy.

That is why the EU's secular values, which create a balance between the rights of believers and non-believers, must be defended. They are inclusive, focusing on those ideals the vast majority of us agree on, instead of what divides us. It would be madness at this point in history, when religion is as disruptive a force as it ever was, to create an unnecessary dispute within the EU about the existence or otherwise of God.

Hugo Holbling · 01-23-2003, 08:55 AM

While i don't agree with your "superstate" comment, DMB, it's a good idea to write to MEPs and make our views known. Since very few people take this step, the MEPs take any comments they receive as indicative of wider public opinion.

FWIW, i don't think the churches have much of a chance here. If God was mentioned in a proposed constitution i think there'd be a good case against eventual inclusion based on already existing European law, particularly the Charter of Fundamental Rights. I suggest using this document as the basis of any contact with MEPs.

Proxima Centauri · 01-23-2003, 10:12 AM

Thank you for letting us know, DMB. I will send an e-mail to the British National Secular Society. I will draw their attention to this thread.

Edited to say I've now sent the e-mail.

Hugo Holbling · 01-23-2003, 10:29 AM

Here's some more information:

Arguments against (see note 2 in particular)

The Pope talking through his hat

More bunkum

never been there · 01-23-2003, 05:39 PM

Can't see the French going along with that. National laws pretty much require a secular public space.

One country alone can't block things any more in the EU, but it does give secular Europeans something to rally around.

Nira · 01-23-2003, 09:29 PM

I tried spreading the word across some more European oriented BB�s some months ago, and the usual reaction was � so what?

I guess without those fire breading TV-Evangelists we see in the US, people have a hard time getting riled up.

Krieger · 01-23-2003, 09:41 PM

Good luck guys.

And just hope that all European students won't have to say "under God" everyday like here in the Taliba-err-America.

Hugo Holbling · 01-24-2003, 04:35 AM

I wrote to my MEP, asking for his opinions and making mine known. I'll let you know how he responds.

d'naturalist · 01-24-2003, 11:23 AM

Talk about revisionist history.

How do 1200 years of Christian occupation of Europe constitute a greater "tradition" than the preceeding thousands of years of pagan society?

You folks in Europe need to get the Druids, Asatru, and other pagan religions involved in demanding equal representation in an EU Constitution on the grounds of heritage and history. Perhaps the resulting debate and open displays of discrimination will open people's eyes to the wisdom of keeping the document a secular one.

I also found this part of the Pope's message disturbing:

Quote:

This will also allow them to reaffirm the non-absolute nature of political institutions and public authorities due to the fact that primarily and quintessentially the human being "belongs" to God, whose image is indelibly stamped on the nature of every man and woman. If this were not to take place, there would be a risk of legitimizing the orientations of agnostic and atheist laicism and secularism that lead to the exclusion of God and of the natural moral law from the sectors of human life. The Continent's civil coexistence has suffered from this tragic experience - as the history of Europe has demonstrated.

Emphasis mine.

The fact that the Pope deems that human beings are property doesn't surprise me, but it should worry people. So should the open display of prejudice against atheistic and agnostic people, in effect stating that the secular point of view is summarily illegitimate and should be avoided.

C'mon Europe, we Americans are stuck with a gov't trapped in the 1950's -- it's up to you folks to lead the world into a better, more diversity tolerant 21st century.

Taffsadar · 01-24-2003, 02:41 PM

I can't access the article, could anyone post a link to some other article clarifying whats going on?

01-23-2003, 08:55 AM	#2
Hugo Holbling Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Self-banned in 2005 Posts: 1,344	Save the leviathan from God... While i don't agree with your "superstate" comment, DMB, it's a good idea to write to MEPs and make our views known. Since very few people take this step, the MEPs take any comments they receive as indicative of wider public opinion. FWIW, i don't think the churches have much of a chance here. If God was mentioned in a proposed constitution i think there'd be a good case against eventual inclusion based on already existing European law, particularly the Charter of Fundamental Rights. I suggest using this document as the basis of any contact with MEPs.

01-23-2003, 10:29 AM	#4
Hugo Holbling Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Self-banned in 2005 Posts: 1,344	Secular not the minority... Here's some more information: Arguments against (see note 2 in particular) The Pope talking through his hat More bunkum

01-24-2003, 04:35 AM	#8
Hugo Holbling Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Self-banned in 2005 Posts: 1,344	Action taken... I wrote to my MEP, asking for his opinions and making mine known. I'll let you know how he responds.

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01-23-2003, 10:12 AM	#3
Proxima Centauri Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: England, the EU. Posts: 2,403	Thank you for letting us know, DMB. I will send an e-mail to the British National Secular Society. I will draw their attention to this thread. Edited to say I've now sent the e-mail.

01-23-2003, 05:39 PM	#5
never been there Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winnipeg, MB Posts: 2,144	Can't see the French going along with that. National laws pretty much require a secular public space. One country alone can't block things any more in the EU, but it does give secular Europeans something to rally around.

01-23-2003, 09:29 PM	#6
Nira Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 806	I tried spreading the word across some more European oriented BB�s some months ago, and the usual reaction was � so what? I guess without those fire breading TV-Evangelists we see in the US, people have a hard time getting riled up.

01-23-2003, 09:41 PM	#7
Krieger Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: ... Posts: 2,191	Good luck guys. And just hope that all European students won't have to say "under God" everyday like here in the Taliba-err-America.

01-24-2003, 02:41 PM	#10
Taffsadar Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The land of the free, Sweden Posts: 27	I can't access the article, could anyone post a link to some other article clarifying whats going on?

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