Veil of Fire

Well, let's see... let's use the Advanced Bonewits Cult Danger Evaluation Frame and evaluate the Catholic church. Just for giggles!
(http://www.witchvox.com/basics/cultaware.html)

All questions are on a 1-10 scale. (1 is low, 10 is high)

"1) Internal Control: Amount of internal political and social power exercised by leader(s) over members; lack of clearly defined organizational rights for members."

That's about a 7. Intense internal political and social power, but well-defined organizational rights.

"2) External Control: Amount of external political and social influence desired or obtained; emphasis on directing members' external political and social behavior."

Obviously a 10 here. They have their own COUNTRY, they have in the past been kingmakers and wish they could be such again. Political behavior is arguable, but social behavior control is almost the entire basis for the sect.

"3) Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s); amount of infallibility declared or implied about decisions or doctrinal/ scriptural interpretations; number and degree of unverified and/or unverifiable credentials claimed."

10. The Pope. 'Nuff said.

"4) Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members; amount of trust in decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations made by leader(s); amount of hostility by members towards internal or external critics and/or towards verification efforts."

8. Not every Catholic 100% believes the Pope, after all, even though they're supposed to.

"5) Dogma: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or 'fundamentalism;' hostility towards relativism and situationalism."

That's about a 9. They're not a 10 because they suddenly discovered situational ethics in the face of sex scandals.

"6) Recruiting: Emphasis put on attracting new members; amount of proselytizing; requirement for all members to bring in new ones."

9, but only because it's not OFFICIALLY required for other members to bring in new ones, just heavily encouraged and rewarded.

"7) Front Groups: Number of subsidiary groups using different names from that of main group, especially when connections are hidden."

I don't know... I think everything that's Catholic is brightly labeled as such, so that'll be low unless I find out something new. Give it a 1.

"8) Wealth: Amount of money and/or property desired or obtained by group; emphasis on members' donations; economic lifestyle of leader(s) compared to ordinary members."

I'm saying 9, because the Vatican contains more gold than Fort Knox, and tithes (10% of your income) are still required, aren't they? Not to mention that there are lots of poor Catholics, but very few poor Cardinals.

"9) Sexual Manipulation of members by leader(s) of non- tantric groups; amount of control exercised over sexuality of members in terms of sexual orientation, behavior, and/or choice of partners."

9. Sexuality is rigidly restricted; man and woman and ONLY for procreation. Only doesn't get a 10 because it doesn't practice prearranged marriages (officially).

"10) Sexual Favoritism: Advancement or preferential treatment dependent upon sexual activity with the leader(s) of non-tantric groups."

Well, that's pretty low. Most of the molested altar boys didn't get in-roads into becoming priests themselves. 1.

"11) Censorship: Amount of control over members' access to outside opinions on group, its doctrines or leader(s)."

Actual control or desired control? Give it a 5, just for demonstrating in the past a willingness to censor, and arresting people in the Holy See for wearing "blasphemous shirts". I can grab the newspaper article if you like.

"12) Isolation: Amount of effort to keep members from communicating with non-members, including family, friends and lovers."

That's pretty low. If you don't have contact, you can't convert them. 1.

"13) Dropout Control: Intensity of efforts directed at preventing or returning dropouts."

8. I've seen first-hand how Catholics treat people who deconvert.

"14) Violence: Amount of approval when used by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s)."

Common in the past, more subdued now tho. Giving benefit of the doubt that they've reformed in this area. 2.

"15) Paranoia: Amount of fear concerning real or imagined enemies; exaggeration of perceived power of opponents; prevalence of conspiracy theories."

If I had a nickle for everything that was allegedly some plot of Satan's according to Catholics.... 6.

"16) Grimness: Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s)."

Nationwide protests over the movie "Dogma" lead me to give this one a 5, and the 'blasphemous shirts' business adds a point. So 6.

"17) Surrender of Will: Amount of emphasis on members not having to be responsible for personal decisions; degree of individual disempowerment created by the group, its doctrines or its leader(s)."

Until the sex scandals, I'd say 3. After hearing robbini justify 300+ counts of child rape with "well, if the priest went to confession and repented each time...", I'm rating this a 7.

"18) Hypocrisy: amount of approval for actions which the group officially considers immoral or unethical, when done by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s); willingness to violate the group's declared principles for political, psychological, social, economic, military, or other gain."

5, just because every group gets hypocrites, but I don't personally know any other than Robbini, who pridefully admitted it.

So, let's add that all up... 113 out of a possible 180. If that's not a cult, I don't know what would be.

BigJim

Egoinos

Christianity in general would fit quite nicely into that list

Amos

I always thought that Catholicism is an occult wherein the supernatural can be transcended to become untouchable by the rest of the world.

Starboy

Wha? Please explain.

sullster

Congratulations Starboy! You are the 1000th person to reply,"Wha? Please explain?", to an Amos posting.

I can only warn you that you may regret what you are asking for. Hundreds before you have gone that route and are still scratching their heads.

Amos

Not at all sullster and I actually did not count on you reading this.

The difference between a cult and an occult is that an occult entertains the supernatural while a cult remains removed from it. I think it was wrong for me to write that the Church actually transcends the supernatural although I do belief that the Church can affect human nature through its knowledge and understanding of the supernatural.

Catholics have heaven and so if heaven is the supernatural Catholics, the Church, is infallible to the rest of the world and remains in charge of its own destiny because of it.

NOGO

I don't see why you single out Catholics.

Veil of Fire

Amos:

Umm....

What language are you speaking? It's not English.

**
cult Pronunciation Key (kult)
n.
1. a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5. a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
b. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

**

oc·cult
adj.

1. Of, relating to, or dealing with supernatural influences, agencies, or phenomena.
2. Beyond the realm of human comprehension; inscrutable.
3. Available only to the initiate; secret: occult lore. See Synonyms at mysterious.
4. Hidden from view; concealed.
5. a. Medicine. Detectable only by microscopic examination or chemical analysis, as a minute blood sample.
b. Not accompanied by readily detectable signs or symptoms: occult carcinoma.

sullster

Amos, I think you are dancing with heresy.

Is not the "supernatural", the enemy? I know that the hated Protestants of the hated Reformation,(you recall your old buddy, the constipated peasant monk named Marty Luther?),smeared your holy catholic church with the slander of being the master-minds of superstition and idolatry. Those creepy German peasants are mostly to blame for some of your church's reputation with the silly occult stuff.

Yet, was your church really travelling in the supernatural realms? Were not those realms ceeded to the conjurers of the pre-christian cults and other types of organized ignorance, and looked at with horror by the men with the pointy hats and the red robes?

Surely,Amos, you risk the stake here by blending the holy universal church with the realms of wizards and magicians. Cardinal Ratzinger may be getting a bundle of sticks together now. The scent of heresy is in the air. Are we to see a "trial by fire"?