Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Godless Dave · 03-25-2002, 05:19 PM

I know what's right and wrong. I don't need to look it up in a book.

Pomp · 03-25-2002, 05:22 PM

Hmmm...that sounds a lot like the theists' approach. They (think they) know right and wrong, too. They don't so much look it up in the book as they use the book to justify their intuition after the fact.

copernicus · 03-25-2002, 05:30 PM

Godless Dave, everyone knows what's right and wrong. The problem is that they all disagree with each other. How do you justify your morality to someone who disagrees with you? Or does it all just come down to fisticuffs?

tronvillain · 03-25-2002, 05:41 PM

Yes, or the threat of fisticuffs. What do you do?

echidna · 03-26-2002, 12:11 AM

Quote:

I know what's right and wrong. I don't need to look it up in a book.

The trouble is, if you were a 7 year old, I think I'd disagree.

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: echidna ]

Godless Dave · 03-26-2002, 06:41 AM

OK, I admit it. I was trying to win a "catchy soundbite" contest. I'll elaborate:

You're right a 7-year-old doesn't automatically know what is right and wrong. She needs to be taught by her family and community. And it is quite possible to teach a different version of morality than the one I'm used to: for millenia society taught that slavery was right. Many parents still teach their kids that sexism, racism, and other nastiness are moral virtues, or that drinking alcohol is always wrong. As an adult, you can take what you learned growing up, add in what you've observed about the world, and apply your own thoughts and feelings to come up with your own version of morality. Everyone does this whether they admit it or not. Those who live by a moral code they find in religious writings have made a decision to abide by this code.

My point, such as it is, is that I acknowledge that my moral code comes from inside me. I cannot really prove that it's better than anyone else's morality, other than to discuss what behaviors are harmful to individuals, families, and/or society, and what behaviors are beneficial. But if there is a conflict between what I think and what the bible says, I trust my own judgement. I lend more weight to what my parents taught me, since I know them intimately and admire their bahavior, but in the end it all comes down to my judgement. I am not willing to defer authority to the long-dead authors of a religious text.

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Godless Dave ]

Sojourner553 · 03-26-2002, 07:05 AM

Godless Dave,

Have you reflected on which of your moral principles were inherited from your parents/society vs. which are inherently true, universal, and "obvious"?

Sojourner

Godless Dave · 03-26-2002, 10:11 AM

Sojourner, no, I'm not sure how I would tell the difference. I suspect that we are biologically predisposed to be repelled by acts of violence, especially against members of our family group, and to want to protect and care for other humans, especially ones in our family group. But I don't know how one would test this (any anthropologists out there who can help me out?).

I know I don't like to see or hear about people getting hurt, physically or emotionally, especially children or other powerless people. And any kind of violence involving puppies is liable to get me particularly upset. But I still had to learn how to translate these feelings into moral behavior. I didn't like to see my little sister cry, but I had to be taught not to hit her. And stealing is something I had to learn was wrong.

echidna · 03-26-2002, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sojourner553:
Have you reflected on which of your moral principles were inherited from your parents/society vs. which are inherently true, universal, and "obvious"?

It�s a question which has intrigued me for a while.

My parents were quite different people in many ways, so I have grown up with some values from my mother and some from my father. That most are from my father probably follows general gender traits, however there are some values which I have adopted which are quite different from both.

Political Correctness for instance is a relatively new set of values which were not directly taught by our Politically Incorrect parents, and yet is now a fairly widespread value system. We get our values from many places, and what is even more difficult is whether some values may be instinctive, or at least innately likely.

Guillaume777 · 03-26-2002, 03:09 PM

Values IMO are completly useless and should be destroyed as soon as possible, as they are a prison to one's self. Same with guilt and morality.

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Guillaume777 ]

03-25-2002, 05:19 PM	#1
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	my atheist approach to morality I know what's right and wrong. I don't need to look it up in a book.

03-26-2002, 06:41 AM	#6
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	OK, I admit it. I was trying to win a "catchy soundbite" contest. I'll elaborate: You're right a 7-year-old doesn't automatically know what is right and wrong. She needs to be taught by her family and community. And it is quite possible to teach a different version of morality than the one I'm used to: for millenia society taught that slavery was right. Many parents still teach their kids that sexism, racism, and other nastiness are moral virtues, or that drinking alcohol is always wrong. As an adult, you can take what you learned growing up, add in what you've observed about the world, and apply your own thoughts and feelings to come up with your own version of morality. Everyone does this whether they admit it or not. Those who live by a moral code they find in religious writings have made a decision to abide by this code. My point, such as it is, is that I acknowledge that my moral code comes from inside me. I cannot really prove that it's better than anyone else's morality, other than to discuss what behaviors are harmful to individuals, families, and/or society, and what behaviors are beneficial. But if there is a conflict between what I think and what the bible says, I trust my own judgement. I lend more weight to what my parents taught me, since I know them intimately and admire their bahavior, but in the end it all comes down to my judgement. I am not willing to defer authority to the long-dead authors of a religious text. [ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Godless Dave ]</p>

03-26-2002, 03:09 PM	#10
Guillaume777 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 7	Values IMO are completly useless and should be destroyed as soon as possible, as they are a prison to one's self. Same with guilt and morality. [ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Guillaume777 ]</p>

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03-25-2002, 05:22 PM	#2
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	Hmmm...that sounds a lot like the theists' approach. They (think they) know right and wrong, too. They don't so much look it up in the book as they use the book to justify their intuition after the fact.

03-25-2002, 05:30 PM	#3
copernicus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Bellevue, WA Posts: 1,531	Godless Dave, everyone knows what's right and wrong. The problem is that they all disagree with each other. How do you justify your morality to someone who disagrees with you? Or does it all just come down to fisticuffs?

03-25-2002, 05:41 PM	#4
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Yes, or the threat of fisticuffs. What do you do?

03-26-2002, 07:05 AM	#7
Sojourner553 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southern US Posts: 817	Godless Dave, Have you reflected on which of your moral principles were inherited from your parents/society vs. which are inherently true, universal, and "obvious"? Sojourner

03-26-2002, 10:11 AM	#8
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	Sojourner, no, I'm not sure how I would tell the difference. I suspect that we are biologically predisposed to be repelled by acts of violence, especially against members of our family group, and to want to protect and care for other humans, especially ones in our family group. But I don't know how one would test this (any anthropologists out there who can help me out?). I know I don't like to see or hear about people getting hurt, physically or emotionally, especially children or other powerless people. And any kind of violence involving puppies is liable to get me particularly upset. But I still had to learn how to translate these feelings into moral behavior. I didn't like to see my little sister cry, but I had to be taught not to hit her. And stealing is something I had to learn was wrong.

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