cydonia

The other day I was listening to the Larry Elder radio show, and he was interviewing old timey singer Pat Boone. The conversation turned to religion.
Pat Boone revealed that since he had been all over the world and seen so many different cultures and faiths, and saw that people of other faiths were just as convinced they were right as he was convinced he was right, caused him to question his beliefs. The faith of someone lighting themselves on fire in a suicide ritual, for example, was a very strong faith he was envious of. He wish he had that kind of faith. He knew the people of other faiths were going to hell and believed the wrong way, so he couldn't understand how they could be so convinced they had Truth.

So Pat became a seeker of Truth, and asked some brave questions. He wanted to know that his beliefs were his and True, not just something he was parrotting from his childhood. He said he started with the basic question "IS there a God?". Well, we can put people on the moon and bring them back. We can send a camera to mars to take pictures. We know how the heavens will behave to a microsecond. He looked up at the stars in the night sky and was blown away by the complexity of the universe, and how the universe operates in such a complex and perfect way that there's no way it was blind chance, there's got to be a creator involved. In fact, it's UNSCIENTIFIC to believe the universe is just a mistake. That was enough to convince him there was a God, and that he wasn't just parrotting something he grew up with.


So since there's a God, how do we communicate with it? The Bible obviously. Again, he wanted to be sure he checked out the evidence and questioned it. Fortunately, the bible is filled with prophecies that came true DOWN TO THE MICROSECOND, the bible is filled with internal evidence of its Truth. Just read it and you'll see how true it is. Jesus loves you and wants you to be with him forever in heaven, if you would just get with the program.

So all in all, Boone respects people who went through the same grueling questioning experience he did. He thinks agnosticism is valid, it's ok to say, " I don't know if there's a God. Prove it to me".

Anyway, i've been through something similar. And the complexity of the universe was my proof that God indeed existed. It took me a while to realize that the concept of a creator and Jesus Christ could in fact be two separate subjects, but I got there. Originally I was trying to get over my fear of jesus and satan, now i don't know if i believe in a creator at all. And here I am at 26 years old, looking at the universe's complexity just like Pat Boone did. He KNOWS he's right. I'm not so sure, I'm more confused then when I started questioning Christ. Yes, the universe is complex. Therefore Jesus is lord?

theIPU

"how the universe operates in such a complex and perfect way that there's no way it was blind chance"

So the universe is complex and perfect compared to what other universe?

"there's got to be a creator involved"

So god needs a creator, ad infinitum?

"In fact, it's UNSCIENTIFIC to believe the universe is just a mistake. That was enough to convince him there was a God"

It's unscientific to believe in god without credible evidence. Simply saying "aww, the universe is pretty, therefore, God exists!" is not sufficient.

"So since there's a God, how do we communicate with it? The Bible obviously."

Why not the Torah?

"Again, he wanted to be sure he checked out the evidence and questioned it. Fortunately, the bible is filled with prophecies that came true DOWN TO THE MICROSECOND, the bible is filled with internal evidence of its Truth. Just read it and you'll see how true it is. Jesus loves you and wants you to be with him forever in heaven, if you would just get with the program."

The Bible does not prove that a god exists, the same way comics don't prove marmaduke exists.


"And the complexity of the universe was my proof that God indeed existed."

How?

Jinto

That guy's an idiot.

Okay, first of all anyone who envies people stupid enough to practice self-immolation needs his head examined.

Sounds like he was looking for evidence to support a pre-existing conclusion.

Complexity is hardly a feature unique to design, in fact it may very well be an indicator of lack of design. What is the first thing we do with a piece of iron ore? We refine it, we take the complexity out of it, and then we use it to build. In general, we try to design the simplest possible structure that will accomplish a given task, so if the universe has substatially more complexity than is needed to accomplish its purpose (assuming it has one), that would be an indication that it is either not designed or very poorly designed.

Second, note his wording: "it's UNSCIENTIFIC to believe the universe is just a mistake." Wrong. You see, a mistake implies an end result that is different from the intended result. But since there IS no intended result (since there is no one to do the intending), it would be impossible for the universe to be a mistake unless there is a God. So again, he's presupposing the existence of a God in his wording.

It's hardly obvious to me how a 2 mellinea old tribal myth facilitates communication with God.

Hyperbole alert! The bible doesn't have any prophecies that were made to the microsecond, so it can't possibly have any prophecies that came true down to the microsecond. Most of the prophecies in question don't even have a timeframe, or worse, aren't even prophecies. Frankly, I think Mr. Boone could use a good smackdown in BC&A.

It's good that you're asking questions and not leaping immediately to conclusions. Hopefully, this post will have given you some things to think about in regards to Boone's arguments. I wish you luck on your spiritual journey and remind you that you should never stop asking questions.

- Jinto

cydonia

It's a good question, I don't know how. I guess the universe is just so big and immense that it makes you give up and say "oh, it's God." I guess the idea is that organization is a human thing, we see organization in our own society and we see it in the universe, therefore someone must have organized the universe in the same way we organize our lives or something. I don't know.

Maybe it's just a way to make sense of a really difficult concept. But, yes I felt the same way as Pat. Now I don't know. But apparently he does.

WWSD

There are some mighty gaps in Mr. Boone's logic.

I agree with theIPU point for point. But I also have to wonder, even if one could demonstrate that the universe was created, how does one prove that thier god created it?

He knew the people of other faiths were going to hell and believed the wrong way

And how did he know that? The bible? Some internal revelation?
Unfortunatly I could probably find any number of muslims who would say the same thing about Mr. Boone. Where does that leave his conviction? Probably in the same state. But to myself, it makes him look rather silly.

The bible fails miserably to indicate that its god was respopnsible. Biblical prophecies are bunk, one can search this site alone and find numerous examples of failed prophecies.

What else in the bible indicates that the universe is the creation of its diety?

the bible is filled with internal evidence of its Truth

That's cirucular reasoning. My cats are god because they say they are is internally consistant, but obviously insane.

If Pat could show me some evidence outside the bible demonstrating its Truth, then I would be more apt to consider it.

Just read it and you'll see how true it is.

Been there, done that. I read the bible as a beleiver, then as a "seeker" and then as an atheist. It got more and more absurd each time simply becasue I let myself realize the absurdities without fearing divine retribution.


Jesus loves you and wants you to be with him forever in heaven

then it should be easy enough for him to come over and invite me himself. I fail to see how this is a problem, and, indeed, how it would interfere with my "free will"

Once I saw Jesus, I could still decide he is not worth my time and trouble. Perhaps I like my sinful behavior too much to give it up, even under threat of eternal incarceration in a blast furnace. People do some very strange thinks after all.

if you would just get with the program

Once again, if we would all get with the Islamic program, we might have a very pleasent heaven indeed. Of course, denying Allah would lead to an eternal stomach grilling in hell.

So all in all, Boone respects people who went through the same grueling questioning experience he did. He thinks agnosticism is valid, it's ok to say, " I don't know if there's a God. Prove it to me"

Except that if you die agnostic, you go to hell. So is it really OK?

Anyway, i've been through something similar. And the complexity of the universe was my proof that God indeed existed.

I went through the a similar experience. The complexity of hte universe was my proof. But it was flimsy proof and it faded.


It took me a while to realize that the concept of a creator and Jesus Christ could in fact be two separate subjects, but I got there.

Could you clarify that a bit? I'm not sure what you mean. Did you think that there was another creator besides Jesus? Or had you lost faith in Jesus but not in a creator?


Originally I was trying to get over my fear of jesus and satan, now i don't know if i believe in a creator at all.

That fear is a terrible thing. I remember it well. It was quite depressing in fact, to think that there was a hell where people would burn forever. Even good people who simply didn't share the same beliefs.

I'm a happier person to be rid of it.


And here I am at 26 years old, looking at the universe's complexity just like Pat Boone did. He KNOWS he's right. I'm not so sure, I'm more confused then when I started questioning Christ.

How does he [i]know[/] he is right I wonder? I'm quite sure he does not have a redline to god's office. Could it be that he wants to beleive so badly taht he has convinced himself of it, while you are more open to the possibilities?

Someone once told me that it is good to be confused, because that means you are open to learning.



Yes, the universe is complex. Therefore Jesus is lord?

That's about the extent of Pat's logic. Doesn't make sense does it?

EvolvEarth

What gets me is that if the universe is too complex to have no creator, then wouldn't the creator be complex as well especially if the creator was omniscience, omnipresent, and omnipotent? I conclude that if complexity needs a creator, then therefore the creator must also have a creator. Didn't Richard Dawkins point this out?

JGL53

Apparently, believers in a 'creator' can not accept that a complex universe, sans a creator, can exist eternally or timelessly, but such believers CAN and DO accept the idea that a Supreme Mind (god) can and does exist eternally or timelessly.

Why is god allowed these attributes, but not the universe? Religionists seem to have no logical or scientific reason to suppose this.

sandlewood

Isn't complexity in the eye of the beholder? Isn't something only awesome if you are awed by it?

hinduwoman

What is this complexity they go on about?
The universe just is the way it is --- just because the human mind is too puny does not mean that a greater mind has to have designed it.

Butters

Damn! Thought I'd heard them all, please give me some examples.