Jabbersnacky

I'm interested in others thoughts as to why certain things in our society have become taboo in some cases without a basis in commonly excepted guidelines of morality.

Generally it seems principles of morality are based on what could be harmful to others and society at large, yet acts that are of a personal nature and have little harmful effect on others have been included in our basic view of morality an thus become taboo.

One that is particularly puzzling to me is the extreme reaction to any mention of suicide. for the most part this topic is totally unmentionable in almost any circle unless one comes out condemning it, and expressing grief.

i know this is a subject that has a person connection to many on this board and i don't want to offend anyone or cause any grief, but I really puzzle over this and would appreciate if there were someone that could talk honestly with me about it.

A little back ground on how i feel about it and why. this isn't a topic i take lightly i have lost more than handful of friends to suicide and I myself made a couple of attempts which of course were unsuccessful.

I know there is no glory in taking your own life it is never something people come to lightly, and it causes a whole lot of hurt to those that are left behind wondering what pain those people who have gone must have been suffering to do such a drastic and final thing. Questions that will never be answered, even those of us that have survived can not always explain what it was that drove us to try. But having been there is probably why i feel that i understand it. It may be also why I feel that it is something that every individual has the right to decide about for themselves.

i would never encourage it but at the same time I also think it is something that should be talked about and not relegated to that place of shame and condemnation that is usually reserved for immoral and heinous acts. We as a society seem to be more comfortable addressing pedophilia than we are suicide.

What inspired this is i recently entered into a discussion with a group about a young man that took his life. the discussion took the usual course of how horrible it was and how selfish the young man was for doing this. when i mentioned that i feel it is a personal choice that he should not be condemned for, I was greeted with accusations of being sick myself, needing to seek counseling, and how could i say such a thing, that my opinion could cause others to think it OK to take their own lives etc.

Can someone explain to me why we as human being are so adamantly against someone taking their own life. Or why it is necessary to portray those who do as selfish persons akin to criminals. are we not letting our own selfishness and grief decide what is moral or right and wrong for another person without a firm basis to do so.

i am all for helping a person that is considering such a act if they can be helped or even want it, but i draw the line at agreeing with it's illegality and forcing someone into treatment or incarcerating them to prevent them from taking their own life.

i don't think it should be a crime, and i don't think those who do it or try should be treated as criminals. to me this is immoral.

Last question why do we only allow it to be discussed when someone is threatening to or does commit suicide? how can any understanding of it be gained if we only address it when it is a crisis or to late for anything to be done?

I imagine I'll puzzle over this one forever, i hope i haven't offended anyone but it's hard to draw any conclusion or gain answers to these questions without asking others for input, and so few will even let me mention anything in their presence that I have little knowledge on how others actually feel about.

Michaelson

I think the thing is that it's a final decision. If you commit suicide you're denying yourself the opportuinity to overcome whatever it is that is compelling you to commit suicide. So I guess it's a compassionate response. Generally speaking, it's unfortunate that people feel compelled to kill themselves, and most people would like to believe that whatever it is that's driving them to such depths of depression.

It's like selling yourself into slavery should be forbidden, because once a slave always a slave. You forfeit your liberty with no chance to reclaim it. If you commit suicide you're doing the same thing, effectively. Seeing as liberal notions are grounded in a belief that individuals should be able to fulfill their potential, committing suicide is generally frowned upon by society.

I dunno, that's the best I can come up with.

As for whether or not it's immoral, I can't see how it could be classed as so. Unless you acknowledge the effectit is likely to have on other people, but that's a flimsy argument.

viscousmemories

I’m not sure when it happened, exactly, but at some point in my life I became willing to talk about anything. This fact has been the source of a lot of tension in my interactions with people. Of course there are certain topics that I am unlikely to bring up in certain contexts. I wouldn’t for example, start a debate about pedophilia with my fundamentalist siblings who have small children, unless I wanted to be forbidden from ever seeing my nieces and nephews again.

However, amongst friends and to an extent, here at IIDB, I will freely talk about anything. Contrary to popular belief, this isn’t because I’m cruel, insensitive, ignorant, unsympathetic or unconcerned about the horrible things that happen in this world and the people who suffer the consequences. Rather this is because I am quite able to separate my reason from my emotion, and discuss volatile issues without making them personal.

Having said that, this is one of the definitions of “taboo” that I found at Dictionary.com:

“A ban or an inhibition resulting from social custom or emotional aversion.”

I’m fairly certain that most human beings have another human being that they love and care for, and who they feel they couldn’t bear to lose. With that in mind, it is quite easy for me to understand why many people would have an emotional aversion to talking about suicide, and in particular to appear to advocate or condone it.
Believe it or not, I think IIDB is probably the ideal place to talk about this issue. At least here the majority of the responses you’ll get will be humanistic, without sputtering nonsense about how the person you loved and cared for is now burning in hell for his or her crime against gods plan. I also think that the fact that suicide has been a very personal issue for most of the participants here and has been discussed at some length gives most of the members here a more specific perspective on the issue than you would find in many circles.
I appreciate your sharing this information, but I think the fact that you feel obligated to mention this is a sad testament to the aversion most people have to discussing these issues. I have never attempted suicide, and I never lost anyone I love to it. However, I still have thoughts and feelings about the issue, and I believe I have a right to share them.
Again, I don’t think the aversion to discussing the issue is based entirely on the idea that suicide is shameful and/or immoral, I think it has more to do with people just being afraid to talk about something so emotionally troubling. Imagine (assuming this hasn’t actually happened to you) that you had a long talk with someone you love about how suicide is a personal choice and there’s nothing wrong with taking your own life, and that night your loved one went through with it. Even though I personally agree that it’s a personal choice and that there’s nothing inherently immoral or wrong with it, I would feel tremendously guilty in that circumstance.
I’m really torn on this issue. From an evolutionary point of view, suicide makes no sense. It goes against our most basic and powerful instinct: to survive. Therefore it’s difficult for me to imagine that it’s even possible for someone to be “of sound mind” and choose to kill his or herself. And, in theory, someone who is not “of sound mind” should be protected from making unhealthy decisions. However, there are a lot of things we humans do which contradict our base natural instinct to survive that, as freedom-loving people, we allow people to do. Smoking, for example.

Another consideration is the age of the person in question. Teens, for example, are still experiencing physical growth (including brain development) and hormonal imbalances. These factors (and others) make it seem likely to me that teens really don’t have a clear enough view of reality to make the decision to die.

I for one appreciate your courage in broaching this subject, Jabbersnacky. It is, as you have mentioned, a very sensitive issue for many people, and you will often get just the sort of hostile responses to discussion of it that you mentioned. However, I believe you are absolutely right that the time to talk about it is before someone kills his or herself, not after.

I have at various times in my life known complete and total fear, loneliness, and desperation, and have wondered many thousands of times throughout my life (on a nearly daily basis for the last 10 years or so) if I should continue to live. In the end, I feel that the decision is mine, and I hope that anyone who loves me and/or cares whether I live or die can come to accept that though their sense of loss may be tremendous, they bear no ultimate responsibility for my actions.

Tom

philechat

Actually, in Feudal Japanese and Ancient Roman culture, suicide is quite often not regarded as taboo or even shameful. Many Roman senetors and emperors commited suicide, and the Sumerai culture actually required suicide when the Sumerai was defeated in an important battle.

Shakespeare's plays were also frought with suicide, indicating that in Renaissance England suicide was probably accepted as an alternate to lifelong suffering.

seanie

On Monday morning I'll be attending the funeral of my cousin. He was 36. He'd had a very difficult time the last few years. He'd been diagnosed manic depressive. Speaking with my Dad he was really worried it was suicide. Because there's a lot of guilt for those still around. A lot of pain and unanswerable questions.

The autopsy concluded it was natural causes. Some sort of seizure. And there's relief it wasn't suicide.

I don't know what to make of it. Because I can see how suicide can be a reasonable option. I can see the point. You're unhappy, you don't want to be unhappy, and suicide resolves that.

Dying from natural causes is just pointless. I hadn't seen him recently but maybe he was doing OK. Death when you're miserable at least brings relief. Death when you're happy just seems a tragic waste.

So I'm not sure how I feel about it. I think our aversion to suicide may be, not selfish, but self-interested. If an individual commits suicide it places a terrible burden on those left behind. It can make a lot of people very unhappy. So in that sense the person kiling themself is being very selfish. Leaving that legacy for others.

Maybe we prefer that an individual live on in pain and misery to a suicide that may bring pain and misery to many others.

Apologies if this sounds a bit off but I don't know what I really think.

Sarpedon

Thanks to Viscious' helpful definition, we find that taboos come from emotional or societal impulses. As philecat pointed out, different cultures have different attitudes. Therefore, we can conclude that this taboo comes from society, Specifically, western christian and post-christian society (if it can be called that yet). Now, none of us seriously considers the hellfire and being transformed into a bleeding bush christian version of suicide punishment, but may that not be the original cause of the taboo? We all know that the religious tend to modify their arguments when they become unfashionable, and arrogate new ideas into their belief system. Might the new addiction to psychoanalysis and the life loving culture have been subverted to serve religious ends? The idea that a person owns his or her own life, and may do whatever with it, or even destroy it, has always been antithetical to the jesus cult. Just as they have falsified american history by referring to our constitutional rights as "God given," in order to imply that such rights that are not set down do not exist, so too are they invading the secular idea that life has value to combat the even more secular idea that anyone has a right to control their own life. In the bible, human life has no value whatsoever. Yet today, priests everywhere assert that it has, in order to combat the "evils" of abortion and suicide.

Thus I think that the taboo of suicide is a remnant of religious belief, perpetuated by non-religious culture. The religious prohibition against suicide doubtless comes from the ancient social structure of master/slave. Obviously you don't want your slave to kill himself, so you make him believe in a punishment that he cannot avoid. Thus religion serves the interests of those in power, as it always has.

Finally, from the book "The Meme Machine," by Blackmore: The influence of genes on behavior is minimal. The process of natural selection goes so slowly, that they are insignificant compared to the force of replicating "memes" within our own mind. Therefore, I consider arguments like "suicide is contrary to evolution" beyond the point. The fact that we were produced by evolution, by no means makes us bound to behave in an evolutionary sound fashion. I have come to regard the survival of the species as not being terribly relevant. The point is suicide is a matter of a meme, in this case, the idea that one should be "happy", overrides the relatively weak genetic idea that one should survive to reproduce. This is not surprising, or negative. I have always objected to "genetic ethics." Why should we allow those annoying little chemicals to control our behavior. Our minds are their product, perhaps, but they by no means control every process that occurs in them.

I don't regard suicide as being inherently negative. If we want to prevent it, we should concentrate on improving human happiness. I do not think that if someone chooses death over an unhappy life is any sign of insanity. Indeed this seems to be reasonable to me.

Jabbersnacky

thank you everyone for your very thoughtful replies I'm still digesting them, and will soon come with a reply. I just wanted to thank you and let you know I didn't take off after making this post.


i have to go play stack a bubble with my little girl so it might be a little be before i can make a real post

Jabbersnacky

this makes a huge amount of sense to me, also taking into account what philechat said about it no being taboo in ancient Rome, and Japan. i always forget Japan when thinking on this they have a term jisatsu ->intellectual suicide, which is a result of alienation and the fragmentation of society caused by modernization. this is probably the suicidal feelings and reasoning I am most familiar with personally.

when I think of it, it seems to be in most cases the negative reactions I get or the most negative when I attempt to discuss it are from people who have had a religious upbringings, specifically Christian, i don't really associate with many that are active Christians but it seems quite likely that allot of the aversion to discussing suicide even among those i know who are not Christian, is a religious hang over, even if they are unaware of it. Many of our taboos and morals in western society do seem to be a reflection of the influences of the abrahamic religions. Damn that really frustrating when I think of it that way, even if i think I'm free of it personally, my life is still governed by that stupid book.

I whole heartily agree. when i was in my worst time, i did seek help in the psychiatric community, not that they don't help people with mental illness, but they weren't able to do a thing for me with drugs or with counseling. My depression was not chemical. I think it most likely was caused by my thinking to much, and scrutinizing the world around me, caring to much about that which i can not control.

forgive me for going into self indulgent mode and telling my story . I think it might although maybe not help explain why i agree with this so much.

I've always been avidly interested in politics and spent a good deal of time as a child researching and studying the many conflicts and wars that have raged through out the globe. I collected statistics, photographs, news articles, and stacks of books, by the time I was a teen I had become a quite out spoken political activist. after years of putting all my effort into trying to bring about change i guess i burnt out. I had struggled so hard to try and make a difference in anything, and had accomplished absolutely nothing. If anything the horror was escalating. by the time the Gulf war came around I was in complete despair. I couldn't take it anymore. even if i didn't watch the news, it was in my dreams and in the back of my mind constantly. also around this time a few of my friends had spiraled down the tubes of poverty and despair, i watched a handful of them one by one die by their own hand and by disease. i had made a attempt on myself during this time. Basically I saw nothing that was worth going on for. i didn't think i could watch another 10 to 50 years of war, famine, and poverty take thousands and millions of innocent lives. I sought help, but in short, the drugs and counseling they sent me for did nothing, because my focus was on the world outside and drugs and counselors could do nothing to change that.

One night I after attending another futile peace meeting I came home and took a handful of valium and a micky of crown royal. i didn't even really dwell on it, no weepy farewell note or deep emotion. I was numb and just didn't want to have to think anymore. I woke up 3 days later, supposedly according to a room mate of mine i had been up in that time, on the second day, mumbling incoherently when he had come in to see what had happened to me after not seeing me for 2 days, of that i have no memory.

I do know how screwed up I felt when i woke on the evening of the 3rd day. I know i must have killed a few million brain cells. It took a few more days before i felt like my head was beginning to clear, I stayed in a sort of fog for a few months after. But I'm not one of those happy success stories you hear about who found new meaning in life or had some radical change come about that lead me to be a happier person in general and live with a new lease on life. the world hasn't changed and neither has the way i see it. I cope that is about all i have taught myself to do. I'm still active in the peace movement and i still collect facts and figures and have my stacks of books. i still look at all that goes on in the world and cry. but I have learned to go day to day try and realize that there may never be a change in any of the horrors that torment me, that it's not my fault they are happening, and i can only keep trying as long as i have breath to breath and the energy and will to do what i can.

I can't guarantee that i won't go back into that pit of despair again, i probably will someday unless the world changes for the better, but I've come to a place where I can cope with that despair for now. and perhaps i will die by my own hand. I'm certainly not thinking this will happen anytime soon. i have a child that I want to raise, and hopefully watch prosper, so this is something I won't allow to happen until I'm old a gray. but i want to claim that right to take myself away if and when it all become to much, or i loose my ability to cope. besides I'd much rather it be of my own choosing and on my own time the way i want it to be rather than feel compelled to go on and on until I'm struck down by some wasting disease that claims me one cell cluster at a time.


I know it will never be guilt free especially for those with children (like myself), even when they are grown. i think the guilt that comes with knowing what loved ones will go through when you gone is one thing that really pushes allot of people like me to try and find help, even if we don't want it for ourselves. that's what motivated me anyway. I may have tried again if it hadn't been for the immense love i have for my parents. The same love i now have for my child that made me learn to force myself to continue no matter how I feel.

I can not expect people to always understand how something cannot be overcome with treatment and how something could be so bad that ending it with something so final like death could be a good thing. especially when it is the loved ones that so dearly wants you to continue to be there for them. but at the same time I don't understand the condemnation and horror that you are met by when you tell them that as an individual you should not be bound to suffer with yourself and your inner pain because they think suicide is wrong.

Emotionally death is always painful for the people left living, but it is also a reality of life. to me the greatest sadness has always been in the suffering that precedes death, be it emotional, or physical.

why do we show so much compassion to those who suffer a debilitating and terminal physical illness, and view death as a relief for them, yet when it comes to the emotional suffering we think they should buck up get some drugs and continue no matter what.

A man that dies of cancerous tumor although we cry when he passes on, we are relieved for him.

A man that dies of his own hand after years of being in that dark place that eats away his mind, we call him a coward , selfish. We wonder what we could have done to have stopped him, wonder what mental illness he had, and what drug we could have numbed him with, wonder what institution we could have him placed in under suicide watch.



Oh geeze boy did i have a verbal diarrhea moment i' better stop cause I think i totally lost any point i thought i was going to make somewhere back in my diatribe.

anyway I think I'm learning allot about myself in this post not just from others. i really appreciate that all of you are willing to discuss this it's somewhat liberating not feeling like I have to restrain myself excessively and only think about these things to myself. the internet it a marvelous thing, it never ceases to amaze me how much i get out of a small gray box and a telephone line. Ok shutting up now.......

Treacle Worshipper

Jabbersnacky,
Thanks for starting this thread.
I think that suicide should not be forbidden. I say this because I lost a friend to suicide, and think that for her it was genuinely the best way out. She had been on and off meds & in and out of institutions for years, and actually killed herself in hospital when one level down from suicide watch. (Ie. they were supposed to check on her every 1/2 hour.) I think it was the right decision for her.
I also think that everyone who is thinking of suicide should be given every other option possible, and as much help as they need. I have attempted suicide myself, but at that time I was suffering from depression. I am overcoming that through meds & counselling, and I am glad I am still around.
I recognise that medical stuff doesn't work for everyone, and also that people may decide that suicide is the right option for them when they are not depressed.
I'm also glad that suicide & attempted suicide are not crimes in Britain, altho' I think it's right that attempting to procure a suicide is. (Btw, I would put that in a different category from euthanasia.)
TW

Sarpedon

Treacle has to be one of my favorite words. Especially in the context: "during the the assault, the besieged dropped stones, great pieces of wood, and hot treacle on the besiegers."