Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ohwilleke · 08-20-2002, 02:16 PM

Class Action v. Navy

Apparently the Navy has one-third Roman Catholic Chaplins, one-third "liturgical Protestant" Chaplins, and one-third "non-liturgical Protestant Chaplins." Basically, liturgical Protestants are mainline Christians like Lutherans and Presbyterians (I would nevery have thought of Presbyterians as Liturgical, but the Navy apparently does), while the non-liturgical ones are basically fundies.

The non-liturgicals are saying they get a raw deal because a far larger percentage of the force is non-liturgical (probably true, the South is vastly overrepresented in the Navy, and is disproportionately Baptist; but arguably irrelevant, because the military needs to serve all sailors and proportionality isn't necessarily the best way to meet this objective).

These chaplins are also saying that they are unduly disciplined and not promoted, which is a deeper issue. It may well be true that this is the case, and then the question comes why? Quite possibly, for example, non-liturgical Christians who reject hierarchy in their own church organizations, have a harder time dealing with the military than, for example, a Roman Catholic Chaplin, who is part of a church just as hiearchical as the military is.

I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a racial twist. Mainline Christians are overwhelmingly all white, while Baptists, Pentecostals and the like are much more evenly split between blacks and whites. I wouldn't be surprised if an white Assembly of God minister, assigned to a ship where he serves a quarter of the ship consisting of black evangelicals and a quarter of the ship consisting of white evangelicals is going to get more complaints than the white Lutheran pastor serving the quarter of the ship who are all white and all belong to mainline Christian denominations, or the Catholic priest serving his quarter of the ship -- who has only a single denomination to deal with, unlike the Protestant chaplins who must minister to people outside their denomination.

[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]</p>

Toto · 08-20-2002, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Nonliturgical chaplains [i.e., evangelicals] involved in the suit say they have been passed over for promotions in favor of less qualified Catholic or liturgical Protestant chaplains. They say some of their superiors have criticized or censored their sermons and pressured those who complained by stripping them of their duties or giving them poor performance evaluations.

A good reason not to have chaplains on the public payroll.

The home page for the lawsuit contains a page for sending an anonymous email.

ohwilleke · 08-20-2002, 03:15 PM

I found a new report on the distribution of religious preference in the military that the Plaintiffs are relying on. http://www.freep.com/news/religion/wchap8.htm This 1999 news report said:

Quote:

A major challenge for the top brass is providing for those who claim no religious preference on entering the military, ranging from 15 to 27 percent depending on the service branch. Members of mainline churches no longer predominate in the ranks as they did for earlier generations. . . . Of the incoming military who do declare a religious preference, roughly 53 percent are members of a Protestant denomination; 32 percent, Roman Catholic; and 13 percent, Christian but of no particular denomination. The remaining 2 percent choose Eastern Orthodox, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other faiths.

This lawsuit claims that about 24% of members of the Navy are Catholic, about 9% are members of liturgical Protestant denominations (defined by the military as Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Methodist, or Reformed), and more than half are non-liturgical Christians (implying a no preference response of about 17%).

It is interesting both for what it says about the military's makeup (i.e. who joins and who doesn't), and because the no preference category (while admittedly including those who prefer not to state a preference but have one) is so high.

[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]

Rusting Car Bumper · 08-21-2002, 11:58 AM

It may interesting to note that a Navy seaman aboard a U.S. Navy ship recently requested to be a layreader for the <a href="http://church.freethought.org" target="_blank">Church of Freethought</a>. His request was denied and, from what I understand, it was denied with some fellings of malice expressed and it probably ruined his military career.

Note that this right is given to other minority religions such as wiccans. No doubt his troubles are symptoms of the same disease as noted in these stories.

DC

Dark Jedi · 08-25-2002, 04:37 PM

It was my experience that the Naval services are rampant with religious preference and pressures.
Further, it is an environment that is not only inhibitive to speaking out against such things, but actively seeks to quell such things.

They don't like you to "rock the boat" so to speak. I rocked it a few times, and found that the returning wake was unbearable.

Toto · 07-27-2003, 11:25 PM

Scope of lawsuit expanded

Quote:

Evangelicals complain that sermons have been censored or watered down in the name of pluralism, or cooperation among religions. Spiers, the Navy personnel spokesman, said pluralism is important.

�It�s your job to help out everybody, regardless of their faith preference.�

Those in the lawsuit say that they�ll help everyone, but won�t modify their message in the process.

According to court documents, the suing chaplains filed a motion to move the date of review back to 1977 after discovering that the then-chief of chaplains, the Rev. John J. O�Connor, ordered a �stacking policy� requiring at least two Catholic priests to sit on every chaplain selection board. Schulcz said the practice was stopped in 1986 due to a lawsuit, but believes the precedent bolsters his position.

�Rear Admiral O�Connor�s placing of two Catholics on the board is typical of the arrogance with which the Chaplain Corps and Navy deals with promotions,� Schulcz said. O�Connor died in May 2000 at age 80. After leaving the Navy, O�Connor went on to become the celebrated archbishop of New York, a cardinal and arguably the Vatican�s strongest voice in the United States.

hezekiah jones · 07-28-2003, 04:54 AM

Originally posted by ohwilleke
The non-liturgicals are saying they get a raw deal ...

Poor babies. Well at least they can take consolation in the fact that as sole correct discerners of absolute truth, they're destined for paradise when the boat sinks, whereas the rest of those heretics will burn in hell. Why isn't that enough for these people.

Shake · 07-28-2003, 07:03 AM

I have trouble justifying military chaplains at stateside bases, since most bases are surrounded by communities with their own churhes of various faiths. Even when stationed in the South, where the Baptists were the predominant religious group, I found that there were plenty of churches of other denominations in the area. I know the bases are designed to be more or less self-sufficient, but there is only a real pressing need for that at our overseas locations. Maybe some folks would feel better talking to a military chaplain about work-related issues that they might not feel comfortable going to their supervisors about. IIRC, military chaplains are obligated to report any illegal activity (I may be wrong about this - maybe that was my job as a supervisor) that might be brought up in confidentiality.

Perhaps some of our other military (current and former) members will also weigh in on this with some better perspective. In nearly 9 years of active duty service, I only once set foot inside a military chapel (friends were having their son christened), and never saw a chaplain in a one-on-one setting. Also, as an aside, IMHO, the chaplains were officers first, and I extended them the same customs and courtesies that I would to any other officer (calling them sir/ma'am as opposed to 'father' or 'reverend').

RufusAtticus · 07-28-2003, 03:42 PM

The reason why evangelicals don't get promoted is that they don't do their job. When they agreed to be chaplins it came with the requirement that they be pluristic. However, that is the last thing fundies want. They should have all been court-marshalled for insubordination if their sermons needed to be watched so closely.

trillian · 07-29-2003, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shake
I have trouble justifying military chaplains at stateside bases, since most bases are surrounded by communities with their own churhes of various faiths. Even when stationed in the South, where the Baptists were the predominant religious group, I found that there were plenty of churches of other denominations in the area. I know the bases are designed to be more or less self-sufficient, but there is only a real pressing need for that at our overseas locations.

I believe the justification is that the when the troops get deployed, the chaplains go with them- something a local pastor or priest cannot do.

trillian

08-20-2002, 02:16 PM	#1
ohwilleke Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Denver, Colorado, USA Posts: 4,834	Facinating suit regarding navy chaplins. Class Action v. Navy Apparently the Navy has one-third Roman Catholic Chaplins, one-third "liturgical Protestant" Chaplins, and one-third "non-liturgical Protestant Chaplins." Basically, liturgical Protestants are mainline Christians like Lutherans and Presbyterians (I would nevery have thought of Presbyterians as Liturgical, but the Navy apparently does), while the non-liturgical ones are basically fundies. The non-liturgicals are saying they get a raw deal because a far larger percentage of the force is non-liturgical (probably true, the South is vastly overrepresented in the Navy, and is disproportionately Baptist; but arguably irrelevant, because the military needs to serve all sailors and proportionality isn't necessarily the best way to meet this objective). These chaplins are also saying that they are unduly disciplined and not promoted, which is a deeper issue. It may well be true that this is the case, and then the question comes why? Quite possibly, for example, non-liturgical Christians who reject hierarchy in their own church organizations, have a harder time dealing with the military than, for example, a Roman Catholic Chaplin, who is part of a church just as hiearchical as the military is. I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a racial twist. Mainline Christians are overwhelmingly all white, while Baptists, Pentecostals and the like are much more evenly split between blacks and whites. I wouldn't be surprised if an white Assembly of God minister, assigned to a ship where he serves a quarter of the ship consisting of black evangelicals and a quarter of the ship consisting of white evangelicals is going to get more complaints than the white Lutheran pastor serving the quarter of the ship who are all white and all belong to mainline Christian denominations, or the Catholic priest serving his quarter of the ship -- who has only a single denomination to deal with, unlike the Protestant chaplins who must minister to people outside their denomination. [ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]</p>

07-28-2003, 04:54 AM	#7
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Re: Fascinating suit regarding navy chaplains. Originally posted by ohwilleke The non-liturgicals are saying they get a raw deal ... Poor babies. Well at least they can take consolation in the fact that as sole correct discerners of absolute truth, they're destined for paradise when the boat sinks, whereas the rest of those heretics will burn in hell. Why isn't that enough for these people.

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08-21-2002, 11:58 AM	#4
Rusting Car Bumper Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: U.S. Posts: 4,171	It may interesting to note that a Navy seaman aboard a U.S. Navy ship recently requested to be a layreader for the <a href="http://church.freethought.org" target="_blank">Church of Freethought</a>. His request was denied and, from what I understand, it was denied with some fellings of malice expressed and it probably ruined his military career. Note that this right is given to other minority religions such as wiccans. No doubt his troubles are symptoms of the same disease as noted in these stories. DC

08-25-2002, 04:37 PM	#5
Dark Jedi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Afghanistan Posts: 4,666	It was my experience that the Naval services are rampant with religious preference and pressures. Further, it is an environment that is not only inhibitive to speaking out against such things, but actively seeks to quell such things. They don't like you to "rock the boat" so to speak. I rocked it a few times, and found that the returning wake was unbearable.

07-28-2003, 07:03 AM	#8
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	I have trouble justifying military chaplains at stateside bases, since most bases are surrounded by communities with their own churhes of various faiths. Even when stationed in the South, where the Baptists were the predominant religious group, I found that there were plenty of churches of other denominations in the area. I know the bases are designed to be more or less self-sufficient, but there is only a real pressing need for that at our overseas locations. Maybe some folks would feel better talking to a military chaplain about work-related issues that they might not feel comfortable going to their supervisors about. IIRC, military chaplains are obligated to report any illegal activity (I may be wrong about this - maybe that was my job as a supervisor) that might be brought up in confidentiality. Perhaps some of our other military (current and former) members will also weigh in on this with some better perspective. In nearly 9 years of active duty service, I only once set foot inside a military chapel (friends were having their son christened), and never saw a chaplain in a one-on-one setting. Also, as an aside, IMHO, the chaplains were officers first, and I extended them the same customs and courtesies that I would to any other officer (calling them sir/ma'am as opposed to 'father' or 'reverend').

07-28-2003, 03:42 PM	#9
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	The reason why evangelicals don't get promoted is that they don't do their job. When they agreed to be chaplins it came with the requirement that they be pluristic. However, that is the last thing fundies want. They should have all been court-marshalled for insubordination if their sermons needed to be watched so closely.

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