Freethought & Rationalism Archive

fromtheright · 10-19-2002, 09:30 PM

The chaplins give you a confidentiality that does not exist elsewhere. It is more then common for military members to have talks with the chaplins that are off records. From discussing depression to drug abuse, a chaplin is a free source of advice and comfort.

Liquidrage,

You're right and I agree there should be some sort of secular equivalent. Unfortunately, you're right about the counseling posing problems for one's career, including for starters, one's security clearance.

diana · 10-22-2002, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fromtheright:
You're right and I agree there should be some sort of secular equivalent. Unfortunately, you're right about the counseling posing problems for one's career, including for starters, one's security clearance.

Yes. I was told that in Basic Training, but wasn't sure I remembered correctly and/or it still applies.

My boot camp was back in the Stone Age. I'd have thought that the government would recognize that there are many legit reasons a person might seek professional mental help or counseling--such as depression or marriage problems--without endangering his security clearance. But from what I understand, the security clearance is automatically suspended if you visit mental health for any reason, then they decide whether to reinstate it or not.

So you have these choices: the chaplain (who may or may not keep your concerns confidential--I've heard stories to that effect too, CipherGirl), a bartender, or lose your security clearance.

And we wonder why the military has such a huge DUI problem....

d

Skydancer · 10-22-2002, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by diana:
Good afternoon, Sabine.

I popped out and glanced through a couple of AF regs on the chaplain corps, and acknowledge that, given the large numbers of superstitious people in the military, it's a good idea to provide them chaplains as necessary when they're sent somewhere chaplains aren't readily available (i.e., deployed, remote or at sea). If it makes them feel better about themselves and their place in the world, I figure it's a small price to pay.

But why are we paying for an on-station Southern Baptist chaplain at Fort Gordon? Are there not enough in Augusta proper? (I use this as a ferinstance, from personal experience.)

d

Three reasons I can think of offhand...

1) You can't have the entire chaplain corps deployed overseas all the time, so this gives you a stateside rotation.

2) Civilian preachers will not be in a position to understand the nature of the military mission and may not be as good at counselling military personnel.

3) Not everyone on a base, even Stateside, has the freedom to leave the base at will. You still would need on-base chaplains to cover this problem.

diana · 10-25-2002, 12:21 PM

Thanks, Skydancer. I think 1 and 3 have merit. Jury's still out on 2.

d

Arrowman · 10-28-2002, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by diana:
But I think you're right about sending chaplains and such with personnel to serve their religious needs when they're out of pocket. If I'm deployed with a bunch of believers who are lonely, bored, disgruntled, depressed and armed to the teeth, I'd feel much more comfortable if there was a shaman for them to go talk with.

Coming in late with this, but I just noticed it and I have to say <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> diana.

Living Dead Chipmunk · 10-29-2002, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Troops are free to pursue their own religious beliefs, so long as their religious practices do not compromise or interfere with the mission.

Thus, the crux of the issue.

The Chaplain is a soldier, so it's not like we're paying a non-combatant to sit around and talk about God.

It might be difficult for many atheists, especially the Angry Atheists(tm) to understand fully, but the majority of military personnel have some belief in a spiritual essence, and need reassurance in that regard before they head out to the field to be shot at by unfriendly types. Without such reassurance, morale drops, effectiveness drops, and the military fails to accomplish its mission.

Not only does having a chaplain not interfere with the troops' missions, it increases the likelyhood that those missions are accomplished successfully.

It would affect fewer people and address fewer morale issues for all the atheists to be kicked out of the military than for all the chaplains to be kicked out of the military. Considering the military is what lets me sleep safely at night, I don't care *what* they do, so long as their jobs gets done properly. My taxes pay for my safety, and whatever ensures my safety bin the most optimal manner when it comes to the military, I happily support.

There are more important military matters to be fussing about than this. Any one of you at any time could be declared an enemy combatant and held indefinitely without trial. That's a military procedure that deserves our efforts in fighting. Not the presence of soldiers who make other soldiers feel more comfortable about facing death.

The Other Michael · 10-29-2002, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woodchuck's Wrath:
The Chaplain is a soldier, so it's not like we're paying a non-combatant to sit around and talk about God.

I must of missed the issue of Sgt. Nick Fury in which he and the Chaplains Corp stormed the secret Nazi hideout, BARs and flamethrowers bellowing hot death to the enemy.

My impression is that chaplains were non-combatants like medics. But then I've never been in the service and could be mistaken.

At least the medic is out there saving someone's life (or attempting to do so). Hands that heal vs lips that pray, etc.

cheers,
Michael

abe smith · 10-30-2002, 04:44 AM

If the lack of chaplains to provide justification and reassurance (that fighting behaviours are okay & What God Wants You To Do) would lead to doubts & diminished "morale" and less effectiveness of the obedient & unquestioning soldiery ..... Hey; think about that. Chaplains are there to prove to our human implements that (as all militaries know) "GOTT MIT UNS". What loyal redbloodied Uhmerkin could find fault w/ that?

10-31-2002, 03:29 AM

Speaking of chaplains, look at what I found over at the new U.S. Senate website:

Quote:

Throughout the years, the United States Senate has honored the historic separation of Church and State, but not the separation of God and State. The first Senate, meeting in New York City on April 25, 1789, elected the Right Reverend Samuel Provost, the Episcopal Bishop of New York, as its first Chaplain. During the past two hundred and seven years, all sessions of the Senate have been opened with prayer, strongly affirming the Senate's faith in God as Sovereign Lord of our Nation. The role of the Chaplain as spiritual advisor and counselor has expanded over the years from a part-time position to a full-time job as one of the Officers of the Senate.

More

Can you believe that our tax dollars are paying for this junk?!

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]

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10-19-2002, 09:30 PM	#41
fromtheright Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 633	The chaplins give you a confidentiality that does not exist elsewhere. It is more then common for military members to have talks with the chaplins that are off records. From discussing depression to drug abuse, a chaplin is a free source of advice and comfort. Liquidrage, You're right and I agree there should be some sort of secular equivalent. Unfortunately, you're right about the counseling posing problems for one's career, including for starters, one's security clearance.

10-25-2002, 12:21 PM	#44
diana Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 6,471	Thanks, Skydancer. I think 1 and 3 have merit. Jury's still out on 2. d

10-30-2002, 04:44 AM	#48
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	If the lack of chaplains to provide justification and reassurance (that fighting behaviours are okay & What God Wants You To Do) would lead to doubts & diminished "morale" and less effectiveness of the obedient & unquestioning soldiery ..... Hey; think about that. Chaplains are there to prove to our human implements that (as all militaries know) "GOTT MIT UNS". What loyal redbloodied Uhmerkin could find fault w/ that?

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