Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kenny · 10-21-2002, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sandlewood:

Then what does it mean to have free will?

If God is a “self-determined” being, then God’s choices originate solely from God Himself without being conditioned by any external factors. How is that not free will?

10-21-2002, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kenny:


If God is a “self-determined” being, then God’s choices originate solely from God Himself without being conditioned by any external factors. How is that not free will?

Right on Kenny, to be in charge of your own destiny is to have a free will.

10-21-2002, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar:
A very good point, Paddy. Let's see if some of the theists who were arguing that God has free will in the "If God has free will..." thread will be able to explain how he can be both free and determined.

Jobar grins with amused anticipation

Only a "Determinst" is truly free for he alone can see the determined cause in the life of humans. It is therefore that the Free Will argument belongs to him.

John 3 · 10-21-2002, 08:10 PM

For this to be an argument, Gods will must be subject to time/causality.

Is that necessary for him to operat IN time?

John 3 · 10-21-2002, 08:18 PM

I agree amos.

I think a person doesnt have free-will untill they awaken to the fact that the world is determined. Then how can they any longer be determined?

But I think religion does that to some extent. To reveal to the animal the concept of the infinite and of perfection which do happen to be our earliest memories.

John 3 · 10-21-2002, 08:59 PM

Oh, nevermind Amos. I missread your post.

VirusInTheSystem · 10-22-2002, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sandlewood:

Then what does it mean to have free will?

I really don't know if free will exists as an objective reality.

Subjectively, i think free will is the way we percieve a determanistic universe producing ordered chaos (As in the book "Chaos"). Determanistic reality can produce non-linear events which are percieved as random or "chaotic". These, combined with the obvious order in the universe, may give us the subjective sense of free will.

Much like certain phenomenon in quantum mecahnics may give us a sense of "self".

On the other hand, i don't know whether this subjective "free will" would aplly to God, or whether he would have an *objective* or true free will, that is not simply an illusion produced by ordered chaos.

I don't really know

Paddy · 10-22-2002, 02:25 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kenny:

God knows what He's going do to because He knows what He has chosen to do. QUOTE]

But if god knows what he will "choose", then there is no other option whatsoever but for it to obtain. So really, it is not a free choice, but rather, the unfolding of a determined set of events.

No matter how you look at it, as soon as god has knowledge of what will happen - it's going to happen; there is no other option, which negates free will. God cannot digress from this determined path.

Paddy

10-22-2002, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by John 3:
I agree amos.

I think a person doesnt have free-will untill they awaken to the fact that the world is determined. Then how can they any longer be determined?

.

Yes, if by the world you mean "their world" because it is in our own world that we can and must find liberty before we can see the deterministc cause in the world of others.

This of course has nothing to do with getting wet while walking it the rain.

Jobar · 10-22-2002, 05:40 AM

Who here has read the "Dune" books by Frank Herbert? One of the sub-themes in the series- notably the second and third ones- is the terrible cost of true precognition. If you can truly see the future, and know exactly how to acheive your goals- then your life is on rails, and all your choices vanish. Knowing the future as one knows the past is shown for the curse that it is.

Admitted that this story is from a human viewpoint- but I think that even a god would find a universe with no surprises, nothing unexpected, to be a punishment worse than death.

Kenny- your argument that God has different kinds of 'knowledge' leads straight to holy schizophrenia. How can you say that an omniscient being does not know all parts of its own thoughts?

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10-21-2002, 08:10 PM	#14
John 3 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: West Va. Posts: 17	For this to be an argument, Gods will must be subject to time/causality. Is that necessary for him to operat IN time?

10-21-2002, 08:18 PM	#15
John 3 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: West Va. Posts: 17	I agree amos. I think a person doesnt have free-will untill they awaken to the fact that the world is determined. Then how can they any longer be determined? But I think religion does that to some extent. To reveal to the animal the concept of the infinite and of perfection which do happen to be our earliest memories.

10-21-2002, 08:59 PM	#16
John 3 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: West Va. Posts: 17	Oh, nevermind Amos. I missread your post.

10-22-2002, 02:25 AM	#18
Paddy Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 47	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kenny: God knows what He's going do to because He knows what He has chosen to do. QUOTE] But if god knows what he will "choose", then there is no other option whatsoever but for it to obtain. So really, it is not a free choice, but rather, the unfolding of a determined set of events. No matter how you look at it, as soon as god has knowledge of what will happen - it's going to happen; there is no other option, which negates free will. God cannot digress from this determined path. Paddy

10-22-2002, 05:40 AM	#20
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Who here has read the "Dune" books by Frank Herbert? One of the sub-themes in the series- notably the second and third ones- is the terrible cost of true precognition. If you can truly see the future, and know exactly how to acheive your goals- then your life is on rails, and all your choices vanish. Knowing the future as one knows the past is shown for the curse that it is. Admitted that this story is from a human viewpoint- but I think that even a god would find a universe with no surprises, nothing unexpected, to be a punishment worse than death. Kenny- your argument that God has different kinds of 'knowledge' leads straight to holy schizophrenia. How can you say that an omniscient being does not know all parts of its own thoughts?

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