Paddy

I may be missing something obvious here, but I'm having difficulty coming to terms with the concept of an omniscient god having free-will. Let me explain:

If god is an omnniscient entity, having perfect knowledge of every action/choice that we humans will make, then he must have perfect knowledge of every action/choice that he will make. The choices that I make are contingent on the choices that god makes. E.g. If I have plans to go to New Zealand this weekend but god chooses to cause devastating earthquakes there, then chances are I'm going to change my mind and choose not to go to New Zealand.

Now, if god did not know that he was going to cause earthquakes in New Zealand, then there is no way that he could know that I would decide not to go there, thus, he would not have knowledge of my future.

In order for god to know my future actions, it is necessary for him to have perfect knowledge of his own.

If god has perfect knowledge of his future actions, then isn't he a determined being?

Now, if god is a determined being, doesn't this negate one of prominent factors of the christian concept of perfect love, and one of the commonly used theodicies . . . free will?

cheers,
Paddy

Tom Sawyer

Hmm ... it's almost like the whole concept of God doesn't make any sense.

Now I wonder why that would be ...

VirusInTheSystem

but why can't god be a self-determined being? that is, he inevitaby will do everything that he has always intended to do?

Uzzah

But he still knows what he's going to do. Otherwise he isn't all knowing. And to break your brain further, an omniscient god can not be omnipotent. He can't do anything, because he's locked into his future path.


Uzzah

Jobar

A very good point, Paddy. Let's see if some of the theists who were arguing that God has free will in the "If God has free will..." thread will be able to explain how he can be both free and determined.

Jobar grins with amused anticipation

rdalin

This negates the concept of answered prayers, since it seems unreasonable to suppose that god always intended to change his mind.

Edited to add: This sounds like I'm arguing against your position, which is not the case. It's just that any attempt to define god in a certain way inevitably leads to problems with other assumed traits.

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: rdalin ]</p>

Kenny

I think that Virus is on the right track. Theologians often divide God’s knowledge into two or three separate categories: God’s natural knowledge, God’s free knowledge, and (sometimes) God’s middle knowledge. God’s natural knowledge is God’s knowledge of all logically possible worlds and it is independent of any choice God makes to actualize any particular world. God’s free knowledge is God’s knowledge of His own free choices, including His choice to actualize a particular world. God’s free knowledge is logically dependent on God’s choices, and thus is not determining of them. Also, since God’s choices are made in accordance with His natural knowledge, God’s natural knowledge is logically prior to God’s free knowledge. Sometimes theologians postulate that, in addition to God’s free knowledge and His natural knowledge, God posses middle knowledge, which is God’s knowledge of what particular free agents would do in a given set of circumstances if God were to actualize those free agents and place them in those circumstances. Since the only conception of middle knowledge, as far as I can see, that would make it distinct from God’s natural knowledge is one that presupposes a libertarian notion of freewill which I find incoherent, I do not regard middle knowledge as a useful conceptual category.

To sum it all up: the knowledge that God has of His own choices does not logically precede those choices, so that God’s choices are determining of God’s knowledge rather than God’s knowledge being determining of God’s choices.

God Bless,
Kenny

Kenny

God knows what He’s going do to because He knows what He has chosen to do. Since omnipotence entails the ability to actualize any logically coherent state of affairs that one chooses to actualize, there is no problem for God’s omnipotence here.

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Kenny ]</p>

Kenny

This objection does not apply if God conditions His choices based on His natural (or middle) knowledge of what we would do if created and placed in certain circumstances. God chooses in advance to answer a prayer that He knows a person is going to pray. God doesn’t change His mind when He answers a prayer that He had always intended to answer.

sandlewood

Then what does it mean to have free will?