ex-xian

In the thread "Jesus' prayer wasn't answered" in the Biblical Criticism & Archaeology forum, the issue of the validity of christian experience was brought up by Magus55. Below is the post responses:

posted by Magus55
posted by xianseeker
posted by Magus55posted by xianseekerposted by Magus55
posted by xianseekerSince this issue wasn't the subject of the thread, I felt it would be helpful to discuss this in depth. I invite Magus55 to participate since his comments sparked this.

Personally, my experience as a christian consisted of several extremely emotional/mystical experiences that occured periodically. I attended a charismatic/pentecostal church so that was par for the course. Throughout this time, I experienced moderate to debilitating bouts of depression, anxiety, etc. I was told to have more faith, I underwent exorcisms periodically to cast out the demons of depression and guilt, and told to just "make" myself feel better. Apparantly God wouldn't or couldn't deal with my problems.

One of the appeals of the christian message is a life of peace, joy, and life, as attested to by the first post quoted above. Magus55 implied that his life after conversion was better and more fulfilling. I offered an example where the opposite occured and was told that Magus55's experience was more valid since "Jesus gives hope," then my belief was maligned since it didn't line up with what he thought the christian experience should be.

Besides that fact that this is a circular argument, there are multitudes of other religions that attest to mystical, postive experiences as proof of their validity.

I invite any christian or other religious person to defend the validity of experience. And I invite everyone else to comment on the above exchange or anything else.

Jamie_L

I've made this similar comment in a number of other threads.

When you argue the existence of God, Christians tend to present a lot of detailed, and well-thought-out arguements. I believe they are flawed argeuments, but they aren't simple answers.

However, generally speaking, these arguements are not actually the reasons these Christians believe. By their own admission, most Christians I've asked this of believe because they have an internal feeling. This feeling falls into one of two categories (usually - among those I've talked to - an admittedly small sample size): 1) Faith has made my life better, 2) Belief in God makes the world make more sense.

These are subjective observations. As an atheist, in addition to the complex reasons why I don't believe, I have similar simple reasons: 1) Abandoning faith has made my life better, 2) Lack of belief makes the world make more sense.

If a Christian says his reasons are more valid than mine, he is essentially saying "My beliefs are true because I believe they are true. Your beliefs are false because I believe they are false." And this is an utterly unsound arguement.

Ultimately, both the Christian and the atheist must fall back on more detailed arguements to support the truth of our subjective experiences to a larger audience. Subjective experience just isn't valid to anyone but the experiencer, and they are equally valid for any experiencer.

Jamie

braces_for_impact

Apparently god gives his 'real' followers a magical beam into the mind of the unbeliever, allowing them to assess our mental condition, our emotional condition, and our motivations.

And of course the traditional argument, since no 'real' christians ever leave the fold, you obviously weren't a 'real' christian. Solves the problem nicely doesn't it?

No need to feel threatened by happy people who according to certain theistic doctrines should not be happy. Why, they just think they're happy. They are really in despair more than they will ever know. No need to challenge your world view with another that might just be just as valid.

Logical fallacy: No true Scotsman.

Run and hide. When in doubt, simply deny the facts, straightens everything right out. (As long as your capable of being dishonest with yourself.)

Jobar

xianseeker, we recently had another thread about Experience as proof of God- you might want to peruse it (if you have not already.) I would recommend it to Magus, as well.

Biff the unclean

I have a couple of friends who are Jesuit Priests and science Prof.'s at Santa Clara U. I must say that what they call religion and what passes for Christianity on these boards bears little resemblance to each other. The Christianity I see on the net could be more accurately described as a superstition than a religion.
OCD was mentioned in the OP. As I understand it one of the symptoms of a mild case of OCD is a type of Feng Shui, where the sufferer feels compelled to repeat certain actions to prevent harm from befalling them. Invariably these actions are unrelated to preventing any potential harm. They will count to 100 or touch every parking meter, not take safety measures. How does this differ from crossing yourself or praying?
Then there is the boasting of miserable lives before they found Jesus. There's even a long running Christian radio show that is solely devoted to reenactments of these miserable lives. But these lives of desperation all seem to be the result of addictive personalities. "Finding Christ" does nothing to cure the personality flaw, it simply redirects the addictive personality. Addiction to religion is no better than addiction to drugs or booze. And the addicts still reinforce one another's problem.

My heart goes out to these people. Surely there must be something that can be done to save them from this sorry state.

MrDarwin

If "finding God" brings these people some peace, stability, and happiness to their lives, I don't begrudge it of them.

Where I do have a problem is when they start telling me what I should be doing with my life. First they need to convince me that I'm miserable (which I'm not), that they know a truth that I don't know (which they have yet to convince me of) and that accepting that truth will necessarily make my life better than it is now (which is the longest shot of all, judging from the many Christians I have known in my life.)

Biff the unclean

For people who claim to have been brought stability and peace they have a funny unstable agitated way of behaving.

I can't help but think that those who suffer from the "DTs" or with drug withdrawal also find stability and peace when they acquire the focus of their particular addiction. Similar symptoms of the same type of disorder.

doodad

I think it's pretty ignorant of a Christian to criticize a non-theist because he does not believe in God or practice religion. I personally practice religion on a basic level, an I hope to gain from it someday, some way. However, I have talked to a number of atheists who don't have any need of religion and who seem to be doing relatively well on their own.

Early in the thread two folks were duking it out, and the atheist apparently had a bad experience at one time with his religious practice. That is so typical, and it most frequently involves a fundamentalist sect or some odd ball outfit. I don't blame them for walking away from it. No one can benefit from that kind of abuse.

I'm a live and let live Christian and I go more for the behavioral aspects of religion than the salvation issues. If the practice of religion can promote human behavior that is constructive and acceptable to others then I see it serving a valid purpose. That's not to say that non-theists can't have concepts of morality and cannot behave in an acceptable manner. They can and do. However the lazy thinkers prefer to adhere to established norms rather than figuring out their own. I guess that makes me a lazy thinker in that respect, but I just cannot see the need to reinvent the wheel.

ex-xian

Hmm, never hears of this. Could you explain it? (of course I could look it up, but it's more fun to read it here)
Well, I grew up in religion, and, of course, it wasn't all bad. But bad experiences weren't why I left. I began an honest inquiry into my religion and found it lacking. Perhaps bad experiences and unfulfilled promises of religion spurred my search. Incidentally, I still haven't abandoned religion. I guess I'm still in a process of leaving or in a state of "backsliding." Who knows, maybe I'll come back and be "stronger" for it...but I doubt it .

I'm really disappointed that Magus55 hasn't responded. I sent him a private message, but oh well.

I realize most of the responder are atheistic in nature. Were any of you religious before, and did mystical experience play a part in your religious practice.

To doodad, do you experience any more peace or joy as a result of your religion?

Jobar

Xianseeker, the "no true Scotsman" fallacy is illustrated as follows:

A - "No Scotsmen wear briefs under their kilts."
B - "But my friend Angus, born near Loch Ness, wears shorts under his kilt."
A - "Ah, but he's not a *true* Scotsman!"

In other words, you define 'Scotsman' (or Christian, or whatever) to mean what you want it to mean, and if someone points out that it isn't the common definition, you devalue all definitions but your own, however unreasonable.

You should peruse the "Atheists' Testimony" thread, which is, IIRC, at the top of the Welcome forum. Many of us were indeed Christians of all types- some were preachers, theologians and church elders.

I am going to move this thread to the General Religion forum. When it started, I thought it might be 'How valid is Xian experience (for providing personal proof of God)'- instead it is more about 'How valid is Xian experience (for validating and uplifting one's life)'. Certainly a good and interesting topic, just not an EoG topic.