Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kassiana · 11-24-2002, 09:30 AM

This is a common atheist/secularist argument with those of us who choose theistic beliefs. "Well, since you believe in Gods, you might decide to fly planes into buildings."

Uh...I don't see where this logically follows. Most people with theistic beliefs are as law-abiding as anyone else. I, personally, have never caused physical harm to anyone due to my religious beliefs, not from ages 13-26 when I was a fundamentalist Christian, and not from 26-present, when I now am a neo-Pagan. I was raised, in fact, by death penalty opposing, war opposing, non-violence praising '60s liberals. Does anyone here seriously believe I am going to give up the morals I was raised with (when I didn't even as a fundy) simply because I have religious beliefs?

If not, could people not accuse anyone with a theistic belief of being able to go off the deep end at any time, particularly when they know the person and know the possibility of that is about the same as the possibility of W growing a brain?

Thanks.

beoba · 11-24-2002, 09:59 AM

I can certainly understand your dislike of stereotypes like that one. I've been pretty good at avoiding classification of a large group of people in a fashion such as the one you described.

It'd be like a theist saying "well, Stalin was an atheist too."

Eudaimonist · 11-24-2002, 10:03 AM

Most religious people, fortunately, smuggle some independence of thought and action into their lives, so they have a reality-check when someone suggests to them that a violent act might bring glory to their god. The problem with religion is that the stress on faith can lead people to give up the ability to question the moral value of violent acts.

Kassiana · 11-24-2002, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Eudaimonist:
The problem with religion is that the stress on faith can lead people to give up the ability to question the moral value of violent acts.

Kass:
That's why I made sure to qualify what I said with the following: "particularly when they know the person and know the possibility of that is about the same as the possibility of W growing a brain"

In my case, for example, I believe I've shown that despite reliance on a faith most here would probably agree was very illogical, I have held to my beliefs in non-violence. To accuse me of being likely to commit random acts of violence is, therefore, as illogical as it would be to accuse a legitimately blind person of just faking being blind.

Troma · 11-24-2002, 12:40 PM

Quote:

To accuse me of being likely to commit random acts of violence is, therefore, as illogical as it would be to accuse a legitimately blind person of just faking being blind.

I agree. I think people who commit violent acts for religious purposes are more likely to be nutty in general.

I think it all boils down to a persons personality type for the most part.

Sabine Grant · 11-24-2002, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kassiana:


Kass:
That's why I made sure to qualify what I said with the following: "particularly when they know the person and know the possibility of that is about the same as the possibility of W growing a brain"

In my case, for example, I believe I've shown that despite reliance on a faith most here would probably agree was very illogical, I have held to my beliefs in non-violence. To accuse me of being likely to commit random acts of violence is, therefore, as illogical as it would be to accuse a legitimately blind person of just faking being blind.

I agree 100% with you Kassiana. Your comments support my belief that our pre existing individuality ( determined by our upbringing and life experiences) will make the whole difference how one will apply any faith or religious belief to their behavior and social interaction. That is why stereotyping and generalizing is unfair and unwarranted.

The fact that being a theist I am assumed to be an individual who could crash a plane in a building to " give Glory to my God" is so demeaning.I uphold the sanctity of life best I can and lobby against the death penalty. I am so grateful to you that you opened up this thread.

Slumtrimpet · 11-24-2002, 03:32 PM

Quote:

The fact that being a theist I am assumed to be an individual who could crash a plane in a building to " give Glory to my God" is so demeaning.I uphold the sanctity of life best I can and lobby against the death penalty.

The fact that being an atheist I am assumed to be an individual who is possesed by Satan and has no morals, ethics, or values is so demeaning. I uphold the sanctity of life best I can and lobby against the death penalty.

scigirl · 11-24-2002, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kassiana:
This is a common atheist/secularist argument with those of us who choose theistic beliefs. "Well, since you believe in Gods, you might decide to fly planes into buildings."

The way I see it - people do ludicrous and evil things for a variety of reasons, but often religion helps provide a justification for these things.

Check out what Richard Dawkins has to say on the subject
<a href="http://www.ffrf.org/dawkins.html" target="_blank">here:</a>

Quote:

In The Guardian of 15th September, I named belief in an afterlife as the key weapon that made the New York atrocity possible. Of prior significance is religion's deep responsibility for the underlying hatreds that motivated people to use that weapon in the first place...
How can I say that religion is to blame? Do I really imagine that, when a terrorist kills, he is motivated by a theological disagreement with his victim? Do I really think the Northern Ireland pub bomber says to himself "Take that, Tridentine Transubstantiationist bastards!" Of course I don't think anything of the kind. Theology is the last thing on the minds of such people. They are not killing because of religion itself, but because of political grievances, often justified. They are killing because the other lot killed their fathers. Or because the other lot drove their great grandfathers off their land. Or because the other lot oppressed our lot economically for centuries.
...
My point is not that religion itself is the motivation for wars, murders and terrorist attacks, but that religion is the principal label, and the most dangerous one, by which a "they" as opposed to a "we" can be identified at all. I am not even claiming that religion is the only label by which we identify the victims of our prejudice. There's also skin color, language, and social class. But often, as in Northern Ireland, these don't apply and religion is the only divisive label around. Even when it is not alone, religion is nearly always an incendiary ingredient in the mix as well.
...
Parenthetically, religion is unusual among divisive labels in being spectacularly unnecessary. If religious beliefs had any evidence going for them, we might have to respect them in spite of their concomitant unpleasantness. But there is no such evidence. To label people as death-deserving enemies because of disagreements about real world politics is bad enough. To do the same for disagreements about a delusional world inhabited by archangels, demons and imaginary friends is ludicrously tragic.

Sorry to steal Dawkins's ideas, but he is infinitely more eloquant than me on the subject, and he sums up my feelings quite well, particularly the bolded portion.

scigirl

Living Dead Chipmunk · 11-24-2002, 03:43 PM

If Stalin had been a Christian, he still would have killed all those people.

If the 9/11 Hijackers had been atheists.... ?

Sabine Grant · 11-24-2002, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Slumtrimpet:


The fact that being an atheist I am assumed to be an individual who is possesed by Satan and has no morals, ethics, or values is so demeaning. I uphold the sanctity of life best I can and lobby against the death penalty.

I can only deplore that some christians follow that stereotype of atheism. Look what we have in common ! that is the key right there... we both fight for the same things. Thank you for pointing that out.

11-24-2002, 09:30 AM	#1
Kassiana Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: USA Posts: 5,046	Oh us crazy theists! This is a common atheist/secularist argument with those of us who choose theistic beliefs. "Well, since you believe in Gods, you might decide to fly planes into buildings." Uh...I don't see where this logically follows. Most people with theistic beliefs are as law-abiding as anyone else. I, personally, have never caused physical harm to anyone due to my religious beliefs, not from ages 13-26 when I was a fundamentalist Christian, and not from 26-present, when I now am a neo-Pagan. I was raised, in fact, by death penalty opposing, war opposing, non-violence praising '60s liberals. Does anyone here seriously believe I am going to give up the morals I was raised with (when I didn't even as a fundy) simply because I have religious beliefs? If not, could people not accuse anyone with a theistic belief of being able to go off the deep end at any time, particularly when they know the person and know the possibility of that is about the same as the possibility of W growing a brain? Thanks.

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11-24-2002, 09:59 AM	#2
beoba Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Boston Posts: 699	I can certainly understand your dislike of stereotypes like that one. I've been pretty good at avoiding classification of a large group of people in a fashion such as the one you described. It'd be like a theist saying "well, Stalin was an atheist too."

11-24-2002, 10:03 AM	#3
Eudaimonist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Sundsvall, Sweden Posts: 3,159	Most religious people, fortunately, smuggle some independence of thought and action into their lives, so they have a reality-check when someone suggests to them that a violent act might bring glory to their god. The problem with religion is that the stress on faith can lead people to give up the ability to question the moral value of violent acts.

11-24-2002, 03:43 PM	#9
Living Dead Chipmunk Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 312	If Stalin had been a Christian, he still would have killed all those people. If the 9/11 Hijackers had been atheists.... ?

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