Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Evil Milkman · 09-28-2002, 07:25 AM

St Robert,

How is 'guesswork' of Christianity better than, say, the guesswork of Buddhist followers? Muslims? Mormons?

It's a wonder to me how someone can find the "truth" in a certain religion, claim it to be absolutely true, and then only have to "guess" at certain things, proclaiming that 'God only knows.'

What if "Buddha" only knows?

Give me a break...

Copernic · 09-28-2002, 09:40 AM

St. Robert

I truly appreciate your participation in this thread, I understand your sincerity in matters of your faith, and I hope you stick around.

I can also appreciate the little skeptic in you that at least accepts that you don't know for certain the hows and whats and whys of Christian metaphysics. And it is to this uncertainty, you fill with your faith.

That being said, you have to understand how tough it is for many of us to buy this.

Now, uncertainty is great. Skeptics love uncertainty. We also loathe it, which is why we continually try to know more. Uncertainty is what science thrives on.

On the other hand, religion, as is most commonly understood, has no room for uncertainty. Faith means little if there isn't a bold, monumental, and beautiful leap onto a rock-hard foundation of absolute truth. So "guesses" regarding issues of eternal fate are not real convincing.

This is where we skeptics/atheists/agnostics leave little wiggle room for believers in their explanations.

For you to be certain about the nature of God is arrogant and impossible by basic rules of knowledge and by Christian's own characterisation of the difficulty of a finite intellect trying to understand the infinite.

For you to be uncertain about the nature of God, makes any of your statements about who goes where after death and why, as credible as any fairy tale.

This is why unbelievers get so angry because we know Christians have no monopoly on the truth yet they are so certain we are all going to hell...along with Eskimo's eaten by polar bears midway through being witnessed to.

Regards
J

St. Robert · 09-28-2002, 01:13 PM

Instead of wondering what happens to people who haven't heard the gospel, why not ask why it is unlawful in many countries for people to hear Jesus' call to salvation?

[ September 28, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]

Sheep in the big city · 09-28-2002, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The thin man:
On the same subject, what about the mentally handicapped?

Well, you could say they have it tough on earth and in exchange have easier access to heaven.
For instance someone without a serious mental handicap has basically no chance to believe in creationism or a self-contradicting God-concept.
Hmmmm, maybe this could help: <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

gravitybow · 09-28-2002, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by St. Robert:
Instead of wondering what happens to people who haven't heard the gospel, why not ask why it is unlawful in many countries for people to hear Jesus' call to salvation?

Because I don't live in another country. I live in this one, where self-appointed saints knock on my (internet) door and tell me I need to hear the Gospel, but can't justify the consequences of hearing the Word vs. not hearing the Word. They say things like:

Quote:

God's judgement is perfect and just. No one will feel a sense of being cheated after they are judged by God. After judgement, people will know that a perfect justice was served.
According to the Bible, the only people that will be held accountable to the Gospel are the ones who have heard it.

And then when they're pressed on the issue, ask side-stepping questions like:

Quote:

why not ask why it is unlawful in many countries for people to hear Jesus' call to salvation?

So, why are you coming into my house and then complaining that you can't visit the neighbor across the street?

GunnerJ · 09-28-2002, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by St. Robert:
Instead of wondering what happens to people who haven't heard the gospel, why not ask why it is unlawful in many countries for people to hear Jesus' call to salvation?

Because the question is little more than a convienient way to sidestep the issue at hand by changing the subject?

Copernic · 09-28-2002, 08:11 PM

St. Robert,
Neither question is mutually exclusive. Religious freedom is essential to living in a free society...and you can see this discussion in more than a few other threads.

The question here is...it's quite simple...and you haven't quite addressed it...what about those who havn't heard the gospel, didn't understand the gospel, and/or weren't convinced by the gospel. Are they in Hell?

You won't find a single person in this forum who agrees that it should be unlawful for someone to hear about a particular religion. Again, that discussion may can be found in great length on other threads.

J

Edited to remove sample post that did no more than poke St. Robert in the eye. My apologies and I'll reserve my jabs for other posts.

[ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: Copernic ]

HRG · 09-29-2002, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by St. Robert:
Instead of wondering what happens to people who haven't heard the gospel, why not ask why it is unlawful in many countries for people to hear Jesus' call to salvation?

This should be obvious. It protects people from hearing the Gospel and thus improves their chance at eternal bliss

Regards,
HRG.

Evil Milkman · 09-29-2002, 06:59 AM

HRG,

I couldn't have said it better. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Robert: Since this thread is primarily about what happens to other people, let's discuss what happens to other people rather than trying to skirt the issue. I appreciate your input and I would like to keep searching.

St. Robert · 09-29-2002, 11:52 AM

I responded with my best guess. This is all I can offer. If I knew the answer to this question, I would be God.

Many of the folks on this thread are apparently more interested in mocking and persecuting Jesus than seeking truth.

[ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]

09-28-2002, 01:13 PM	#43
St. Robert Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 170	Instead of wondering what happens to people who haven't heard the gospel, why not ask why it is unlawful in many countries for people to hear Jesus' call to salvation? [ September 28, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]</p>

09-28-2002, 08:11 PM	#47
Copernic Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: St. Louis, MO, USA Posts: 446	St. Robert, Neither question is mutually exclusive. Religious freedom is essential to living in a free society...and you can see this discussion in more than a few other threads. The question here is...it's quite simple...and you haven't quite addressed it...what about those who havn't heard the gospel, didn't understand the gospel, and/or weren't convinced by the gospel. Are they in Hell? You won't find a single person in this forum who agrees that it should be unlawful for someone to hear about a particular religion. Again, that discussion may can be found in great length on other threads. J Edited to remove sample post that did no more than poke St. Robert in the eye. My apologies and I'll reserve my jabs for other posts. [ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: Copernic ]</p>

09-29-2002, 11:52 AM	#50
St. Robert Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 170	I responded with my best guess. This is all I can offer. If I knew the answer to this question, I would be God. Many of the folks on this thread are apparently more interested in mocking and persecuting Jesus than seeking truth. [ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]</p>

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09-28-2002, 07:25 AM	#41
Evil Milkman Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 499	St Robert, How is 'guesswork' of Christianity better than, say, the guesswork of Buddhist followers? Muslims? Mormons? It's a wonder to me how someone can find the "truth" in a certain religion, claim it to be absolutely true, and then only have to "guess" at certain things, proclaiming that 'God only knows.' What if "Buddha" only knows? Give me a break...

09-28-2002, 09:40 AM	#42
Copernic Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: St. Louis, MO, USA Posts: 446	St. Robert I truly appreciate your participation in this thread, I understand your sincerity in matters of your faith, and I hope you stick around. I can also appreciate the little skeptic in you that at least accepts that you don't know for certain the hows and whats and whys of Christian metaphysics. And it is to this uncertainty, you fill with your faith. That being said, you have to understand how tough it is for many of us to buy this. Now, uncertainty is great. Skeptics love uncertainty. We also loathe it, which is why we continually try to know more. Uncertainty is what science thrives on. On the other hand, religion, as is most commonly understood, has no room for uncertainty. Faith means little if there isn't a bold, monumental, and beautiful leap onto a rock-hard foundation of absolute truth. So "guesses" regarding issues of eternal fate are not real convincing. This is where we skeptics/atheists/agnostics leave little wiggle room for believers in their explanations. For you to be certain about the nature of God is arrogant and impossible by basic rules of knowledge and by Christian's own characterisation of the difficulty of a finite intellect trying to understand the infinite. For you to be uncertain about the nature of God, makes any of your statements about who goes where after death and why, as credible as any fairy tale. This is why unbelievers get so angry because we know Christians have no monopoly on the truth yet they are so certain we are all going to hell...along with Eskimo's eaten by polar bears midway through being witnessed to. Regards J

09-29-2002, 06:59 AM	#49
Evil Milkman Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 499	HRG, I couldn't have said it better. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> Robert: Since this thread is primarily about what happens to other people, let's discuss what happens to other people rather than trying to skirt the issue. I appreciate your input and I would like to keep searching.

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