Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Evil Milkman · 09-19-2002, 12:53 PM

My apologies to people who may have written about this or responded to this type of question before on these boards... If you know of a similar discussion I'd be grateful if you would provide a link. Thanks!

Ok, let's just assume that the Bible is infallible (which is endlessly debatable in and of itself) for a while. My question and curiousity is pointed to those people throughout history and even living today who haven't heard the "Good News" about Jesus Christ dying for our sins. Do those people get to go to heaven because of their lack of knowledge or will they be damned to hell for simply not believing in Christ? Does anyone know of any verses in the Bible that can be good sources of information on this topic?

Best case scenario...
"Good" people who haven't heard about Christ get to go to heaven on warrant of ignorance or innocence. Would this be unfair to those who have heard it but either 1) didn't understand it, or 2)understood it but rejected it? I've heard from several religious people that God just doesn't care whether or not your innocent or not when it comes to Judgement Day, he'll still judge based on your personal beliefs. This doesn't seem to make sense, and it never truly may. Now for the worst case.

Worst case scenario...
I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but say a person is brought up in a culture that has either a different religion or none at all. This person lives a life fully devoted to being compassionate towards other people, spends his time caring for friends and family, and is generally what you would call a good person. But, then eventually this person dies and finds him or herself spending eternity in damnation. Would that be fair judgement?

I asked my girlfriend the question above in bold (she's a Bible believing Christian) and she replied with a couple of things. She mentioned that possibly the person who didn't have a chance to believe in Christ would go to hell, but the heat in hell would be just a "little less" than a person who has heard about Jesus. I almost laughed, and then asked her if her reply was Biblical. She couldn't say. Later on that evening, she took the hard line approach and basically said that "no man is without excuse" and pointed me to a verse that said something along those lines (New Testament, I think). Honestly, I was a little taken aback by this sense of skewed justice. I mean, would God really just be like, "BOO-HOO! Cry me a river, you sucker! Yer goin' to Hell!"? <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> Or would He be saddened to no end because His plan screwed up and he forgot to "program" a person to tell him the "Good News"? Both seem impossible, don't they?

My girlfriend then said that I couldn't prove that everyone hasn't felt the spirit of God and conciously chooses whether or not to accept Him. Of course I don't buy that. Just because I can't prove that the person didn't in fact have a spirtual visit from God does not mean that they did. So, in general, she said that no matter what time period the person lived in, or how culturally removed that person was from society, they themselves were responsible for the beliefs that they had when they died. What evidence do people have (that think like my girlfriend does) that culturally isolated people have any knowledge of the God of the Bible?

My girlfriend later asked me (very emotional now) why I was rejecting God and not being thankful what what "He has done" in my life. I told her. She asked me why I would reject just because other people were going to hell because they haven't heard about Christ. I don't believe in a creator that has a "chosen people" or even just "chooses" people to believe just because it's part of "His plan."

If people who haven't heard and lived ethically good lives and are still going to hell, Christianity is NOT attractive to me at all. Christianity is sickening if this is the case.

Thanks in advance to all replies and comments. If I have missed a point or two (which I most certainly did), feel free to add on to this discussion with your ideas.

Eskimo: Ok, so if I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior, I will be admitted into heaven?
Evangelist: Yes, brother!
Eskimo: Great! But wait... What about those who haven't ever heard about this Jesus?
Evangelist: Well, they get to go to heaven anyway. God has mercy on them.
Eskimo: THEN WHY DID YOU BOTHER TELLING ME!?!

-Evil Milkman

*edited for placement of joke*

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: Evil Milkman ]

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: Evil Milkman ]

St. Robert · 09-19-2002, 01:09 PM

God's judgement is perfect and just. No one will feel a sense of being cheated after they are judged by God. After judgement, people will know that a perfect justice was served.

According to the Bible, the only people that will be held accountable to the Gospel are the ones who have heard it.

MadMordigan · 09-19-2002, 01:19 PM

*fingers in ears*

LALALALALALALALALALALALA I cant hear you silly evangelicals LALALALALALALALALAAL

Please don't tell me you worship a god that can be outsmarted by a 5 year old.

Evil Milkman · 09-19-2002, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by St. Robert:
God's judgement is perfect and just. No one will feel a sense of being cheated after they are judged by God. After judgement, people will know that a perfect justice was served.

If I may ask, can you support that Biblically? Verses and passages will be greatly appreciated.

Quote:

According to the Bible, the only people that will be held accountable to the Gospel are the ones who have heard it.

Again, Biblical back up would be great. I still don't see how it's fair and just that a person who hasn't heard at all gets a free ticket, while those who don't understand or reject get a ticket to burn.

Edited because I can't type.

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: Evil Milkman ]

MarcoPolo · 09-19-2002, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MadMordigan:
Please don't tell me you worship a god that can be outsmarted by a 5 year old.

Not saying I don't agree with you, but is this documented some where?

sakrilege · 09-19-2002, 02:04 PM

One xtian's view ...
<a href="http://www.biblehelp.org/mainviews.htm" target="_blank">5 Main Views of the Destiny of the Heathen</a>

Copernic · 09-19-2002, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by St. Robert:

According to the Bible, the only people that will be held accountable to the Gospel are the ones who have heard it.

The logical converse of this is that the only people who need not be held accountable to the Gospel are the ones who haven't heard it.

So, those that are saved are the ones who heard the Gospel and committed to "Jesus, my lord and savior, son of....etc" and those who are ignorant of the Gospel.

So, what the hell are you people doing going around and witnessing to people, knowing full well that their ignorance already gives them a ticket to the big city in the sky? Once you tell them, you purposefully commit a great many of them to hell.

How sickening is that? Going around and purposefully damning people to hell. Now I know why MadMordigan put his fingers in his ears.

A question to all witnessing Christians. If you were to run into Evil Milkman's Eskimo, how much do you have to tell him to ensure his eternal damnation. Can you do a Witnessing driveby?
Running up to your target, shouting "JESUS SAVES!!!" and scampering away....or do you have to elaborate a bit.

Frankly, I think God pulled his John 3:16 because Heaven was getting too crowded. All kind-hearted Pre-Yeshua folk were getting in and filling the place before he could zone for more space. What better way than to provide a reverse password such that if you know the code but aren't convinced, you don't get in. Brilliant!!!
Sort of only leaves space for non-denom's huh?
Regards

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: Copernic ]

The thin man · 09-20-2002, 09:34 AM

On the same subject, what about the mentally handicapped? If they do not have the ability to make a decision on whether or not Jesus is the one for them, are they automatically destined for hell? If they get a free ride to heaven because of their condition, where is the dividing line? At what IQ level does god use to determine if this person can make that decision? And If they can get a free pass, why not everyone else?

I'll tell you, this xtian stuff makes no sense to me.

Evil Milkman · 09-20-2002, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The thin man:
On the same subject, what about the mentally handicapped?

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

That's a great topic to bring up, thin man! It's actually almost deservant of it's own thread...

Either way, a handicapped person going to heaven or hell is absurd! They're people too, but does condeming them to hell just? Is giving them admittance into heaven just? It makes you wonder! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

GunnerJ · 09-20-2002, 10:26 AM

Robert:

Let's change Milkman's eskimo example a bit. A missionary comes up to an eskimo and tells him all about the Bible and the Gospel message, and why the eskimo needs jebus to save him, and all that. The missionary asks if the eskimo accepts Jebus as lawd and savya. The eskimo takes it all in and starts to think before he replies, and as he's thinking, a polar bear charges up and mauls the eskimo to death.

Where does the eskimo go?

09-19-2002, 12:53 PM	#1
Evil Milkman Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 499	What About The People Who Haven't Heard About The Gospels? My apologies to people who may have written about this or responded to this type of question before on these boards... If you know of a similar discussion I'd be grateful if you would provide a link. Thanks! Ok, let's just assume that the Bible is infallible (which is endlessly debatable in and of itself) for a while. My question and curiousity is pointed to those people throughout history and even living today who haven't heard the "Good News" about Jesus Christ dying for our sins. Do those people get to go to heaven because of their lack of knowledge or will they be damned to hell for simply not believing in Christ? Does anyone know of any verses in the Bible that can be good sources of information on this topic? Best case scenario... "Good" people who haven't heard about Christ get to go to heaven on warrant of ignorance or innocence. Would this be unfair to those who have heard it but either 1) didn't understand it, or 2)understood it but rejected it? I've heard from several religious people that God just doesn't care whether or not your innocent or not when it comes to Judgement Day, he'll still judge based on your personal beliefs. This doesn't seem to make sense, and it never truly may. Now for the worst case. Worst case scenario... I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but say a person is brought up in a culture that has either a different religion or none at all. This person lives a life fully devoted to being compassionate towards other people, spends his time caring for friends and family, and is generally what you would call a good person. But, then eventually this person dies and finds him or herself spending eternity in damnation. Would that be fair judgement? I asked my girlfriend the question above in bold (she's a Bible believing Christian) and she replied with a couple of things. She mentioned that possibly the person who didn't have a chance to believe in Christ would go to hell, but the heat in hell would be just a "little less" than a person who has heard about Jesus. I almost laughed, and then asked her if her reply was Biblical. She couldn't say. Later on that evening, she took the hard line approach and basically said that "no man is without excuse" and pointed me to a verse that said something along those lines (New Testament, I think). Honestly, I was a little taken aback by this sense of skewed justice. I mean, would God really just be like, "BOO-HOO! Cry me a river, you sucker! Yer goin' to Hell!"? <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> Or would He be saddened to no end because His plan screwed up and he forgot to "program" a person to tell him the "Good News"? Both seem impossible, don't they? My girlfriend then said that I couldn't prove that everyone hasn't felt the spirit of God and conciously chooses whether or not to accept Him. Of course I don't buy that. Just because I can't prove that the person didn't in fact have a spirtual visit from God does not mean that they did. So, in general, she said that no matter what time period the person lived in, or how culturally removed that person was from society, they themselves were responsible for the beliefs that they had when they died. What evidence do people have (that think like my girlfriend does) that culturally isolated people have any knowledge of the God of the Bible? My girlfriend later asked me (very emotional now) why I was rejecting God and not being thankful what what "He has done" in my life. I told her. She asked me why I would reject just because other people were going to hell because they haven't heard about Christ. I don't believe in a creator that has a "chosen people" or even just "chooses" people to believe just because it's part of "His plan." If people who haven't heard and lived ethically good lives and are still going to hell, Christianity is NOT attractive to me at all. Christianity is sickening if this is the case. Thanks in advance to all replies and comments. If I have missed a point or two (which I most certainly did), feel free to add on to this discussion with your ideas. Eskimo: Ok, so if I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior, I will be admitted into heaven? Evangelist: Yes, brother! Eskimo: Great! But wait... What about those who haven't ever heard about this Jesus? Evangelist: Well, they get to go to heaven anyway. God has mercy on them. Eskimo: THEN WHY DID YOU BOTHER TELLING ME!?! -Evil Milkman edited for placement of joke [ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: Evil Milkman ] [ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: Evil Milkman ]</p>

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09-19-2002, 01:09 PM	#2
St. Robert Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 170	God's judgement is perfect and just. No one will feel a sense of being cheated after they are judged by God. After judgement, people will know that a perfect justice was served. According to the Bible, the only people that will be held accountable to the Gospel are the ones who have heard it.

09-19-2002, 01:19 PM	#3
MadMordigan Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 2,704	fingers in ears LALALALALALALALALALALALA I cant hear you silly evangelicals LALALALALALALALALAAL Please don't tell me you worship a god that can be outsmarted by a 5 year old.

09-19-2002, 02:04 PM	#6
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	One xtian's view ... <a href="http://www.biblehelp.org/mainviews.htm" target="_blank">5 Main Views of the Destiny of the Heathen</a>

09-20-2002, 09:34 AM	#8
The thin man Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sioux City, IA Posts: 10	On the same subject, what about the mentally handicapped? If they do not have the ability to make a decision on whether or not Jesus is the one for them, are they automatically destined for hell? If they get a free ride to heaven because of their condition, where is the dividing line? At what IQ level does god use to determine if this person can make that decision? And If they can get a free pass, why not everyone else? I'll tell you, this xtian stuff makes no sense to me.

09-20-2002, 10:26 AM	#10
GunnerJ Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: a place where i can list whatever location i want Posts: 4,871	Robert: Let's change Milkman's eskimo example a bit. A missionary comes up to an eskimo and tells him all about the Bible and the Gospel message, and why the eskimo needs jebus to save him, and all that. The missionary asks if the eskimo accepts Jebus as lawd and savya. The eskimo takes it all in and starts to think before he replies, and as he's thinking, a polar bear charges up and mauls the eskimo to death. Where does the eskimo go?

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