Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spurly · 04-01-2003, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
I really think that you haven't read the bible or you would know that there isn't one gawrddamned thing in it that supports "free will."
You keep describing your reasons why you think God doesn't do anything. Then you look at nothing and say isn't it wonderful! That's God not doing anything. Isn't God wonderful, he loves and honors us so much that he takes absolutely no actions at all.

Then you take a book of mythology from the bronze age and say isn't it wonderful God is doing this that and the other thing.

And that's how you prove to us that God is a fictional character.
The God character in the novel "The Bible" takes constant and dramatic actions. He's completely "hands on."

In the real world�nothing.

You yammer on about "free will" because you forget about the Action God in the Bible. You are so busy trying to come up with an excuse for why God does absolutely nothing in the real world that you are willing to sacrifice the Bible God.

God exists only in the Bible. The reason he does nothing in the real world is because he is powerless to do anything. He is fictional. He doesn't stop the actions of humans because he can't. In the novel he's a character in he stopped the actions of humans all the time. He has no effect on the real world because he isn't real.

Biff,

Upon close inspection of the Scriptures you will find that there were really one four periods of time in which miracles were happening over and over again:

1) The creation - Genesis 1&2
2) The exodus from Egypt and the Ratifying of the Old Covenant (Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy)
3) The time of Elisha and Elijah
4) The time of Jesus and the birth of the church

Other than these specific times, miracles were not the normal way for God to interact with his people. They were very few and very far between.

So why the miracles at the times I listed.

1) Creation: It took God's working a miracle to begin a relationship of love with his people. The whole creation was a gift of love from God to us.

2 & 4) The miracles accompanied the setting up of God's covenant relationship with his people. They were there to verify what the messengers were saying was true. In the NT, before the Canan was compiled, miracles verified the message.

3) God was setting up the kingdom of Israel and calling his people back to himself.

Other than that, the miracles you say are everywhere through Scripture, aren't everywhere. God limits his miraculous intervention because he has chose to give us free will and let us experience the consequences of exercising that free will.

Kevin

Rhea · 04-01-2003, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Upon close inspection of the Scriptures you will find that there were really one four periods of time in which miracles were happening over and over again:

1) The creation - Genesis 1&2
2) The exodus from Egypt and the Ratifying of the Old Covenant (Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy)
3) The time of Elisha and Elijah
4) The time of Jesus and the birth of the church

Other than these specific times, miracles were not the normal way for God to interact with his people. They were very few and very far between.

So why the miracles at the times I listed.

1) Creation: It took God's working a miracle to begin a relationship of love with his people. The whole creation was a gift of love from God to us.

2 & 4) The miracles accompanied the setting up of God's covenant relationship with his people. They were there to verify what the messengers were saying was true. In the NT, before the Canan was compiled, miracles verified the message.

3) God was setting up the kingdom of Israel and calling his people back to himself.

Other than that, the miracles you say are everywhere through Scripture, aren't everywhere. God limits his miraculous intervention because he has chose to give us free will and let us experience the consequences of exercising that free will.

So Spurly.

If God needed miracles to 'set up" covenants and churches and stuff. But didn't need them after.

Then we're talking about only a certain number of miracles needed.

Certain people deserve convincing.
Others don't deserve it.

So, why did god perform more than one miracle?
If he had to convince Moses to set up the covenant, why a single additional miracle?
If the exodus folks deserved proof viz miracles, why don't we?

Your argument seems to say God only needed FOUR miracles and all the others don't make a lick of sense.

But God went around convincing LOTS of people.
Why is that?
And why is it NOT that, any more?

No, wait. Your argument is that god only ever needed ONE MIRACLE. Because once he convinces one person, no one else deserves to be individually convinced. All should be convinced by a fellow human, or a book that that human wrote.

That's what you're saying should convince me. So why did Moses and the Exodusites get personal miracles? What's wrong with the one Adam & Eve got?

Oh wait, look at the trouble Adam got in for listening to the convincing arguments of another human.

!!!

Makes you wonder, doesn't it, whether the bible is actually Satan's work. 'Cause Satan is the one who counts on humans telling other humans erroneous things.

???

Biff the unclean · 04-01-2003, 11:44 AM

Other than that, the miracles you say are everywhere through Scripture, aren't everywhere. God limits his miraculous intervention because he has chose to give us free will and let us experience the consequences of exercising that free will.

So God honors mans free will except when he doesn't then. Is that what you are saying?
Not a peep out of him except in some Bronze Age stories.

Odd, don't you think, that he stopped doing miracles at the same time that Apollo and Zeus stopped doing miracles. Are the Olympic Gods honoring our free will too? I can't help but notice that the total inaction of Jesus looks exactly like the total inaction of Artemis at the WTC.

Mageth · 04-01-2003, 11:52 AM

Magus55:

Well, in our opinion, with no God the evil in the world would self destruct itself and take over, in which case civilization probably wouldn't have survived long enough to get to 9/11. But assuming it did survive up until that point, I'd say there would be less unity in the world from it, more destraught families committing suicide or losing touch with reality due to lack of comfort. Less people would have lived etc. Don't really know, since I don't believe in a world where God doesn't exist, can't really speculate what it would be like without Him. Hell on earth probably.

This seems to run counter to your "free will" argument. If god is indeed mucking about in our affairs to keep us from destroying ourselves, setting up "hell on earth", etc., then how do we truly have free will? To give us free exercise of our free will, shouldn't he let each of us, and us as a whole, do whatever we want, with whatever results come about from our free actions?

Magus55 · 04-01-2003, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth

This seems to run counter to your "free will" argument. If god is indeed mucking about in our affairs to keep us from destroying ourselves, setting up "hell on earth", etc., then how do we truly have free will? To give us free exercise of our free will, shouldn't he let each of us, and us as a whole, do whatever we want, with whatever results come about from our free actions?

Because He isn't affecting free will. God is sustaining creation and keeping it from getting too far. He still lets you make your own choices and works independently of your choices. If a human uses their free will to kill 3000 people, God can comfort people at the same time without affecting free will.

God works independently of it. He just sustains creation and sometimes intervenes directly or indirectly.

Mageth · 04-01-2003, 12:04 PM

Because He isn't affecting free will.

If he intervenes to keep us from killing ourselves, then he damn sure is.

God works independently of it. He just sustains creation and sometimes intervenes directly or indirectly.

Give me an example of where god intervened directly, and another where he intervened indirectly. Then explain how his actions didn't interfere with our free will.

Biff the unclean · 04-01-2003, 12:15 PM

And by the way when we say that God takes no actions we aren't saying miracles. Mundane actions by God aren't being done either. God isn't comforting you, he doesn't get on the phone and say 'there there poor baby' to you.
If God intervenes directly or indirectly he is still intervening. And your "free will" argument, which is based on nonintervention, is thereby shot.
I know you want it both ways, and I can understand how afraid you are. But tough luck, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

spurly · 04-01-2003, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhea
So Spurly.

If God needed miracles to 'set up" covenants and churches and stuff. But didn't need them after.

Then we're talking about only a certain number of miracles needed.

Certain people deserve convincing.
Others don't deserve it.

So, why did god perform more than one miracle?
If he had to convince Moses to set up the covenant, why a single additional miracle?
If the exodus folks deserved proof viz miracles, why don't we?

Your argument seems to say God only needed FOUR miracles and all the others don't make a lick of sense.

But God went around convincing LOTS of people.
Why is that?
And why is it NOT that, any more?

No, wait. Your argument is that god only ever needed ONE MIRACLE. Because once he convinces one person, no one else deserves to be individually convinced. All should be convinced by a fellow human, or a book that that human wrote.

That's what you're saying should convince me. So why did Moses and the Exodusites get personal miracles? What's wrong with the one Adam & Eve got?

Oh wait, look at the trouble Adam got in for listening to the convincing arguments of another human.

!!!

Makes you wonder, doesn't it, whether the bible is actually Satan's work. 'Cause Satan is the one who counts on humans telling other humans erroneous things.

???

It's not that other people don't deserve convincing. It is instead that God has done everything necessary to convince anyone who is willing to look at the evidence that he does exist. He has given proof enough that Jesus is the very Son of God in the flesh - and he has chosen people to record that information for all time in his word.

Nope. The Bible is not the work of Satan. Why would Satan want to convince people to have a relationship of love with God.

Kevin

Mageth · 04-01-2003, 03:51 PM

It's not that other people don't deserve convincing. It is instead that God has done everything necessary to convince anyone who is willing to look at the evidence that he does exist.

Well, I'm willing, and I've looked (for many years), but I'm not convinced. What does that tell you?

He has given proof enough that Jesus is the very Son of God in the flesh - and he has chosen people to record that information for all time in his word.

Hardly, as neither I nor many, many others are in the least convinced by the so-called "proof".

Nope. The Bible is not the work of Satan. Why would Satan want to convince people to have a relationship of love with God.

To fool people into not believing in the true god, the most Holy IPU (PBUHHH)?

Biff the unclean · 04-01-2003, 04:56 PM

Remember who it was in "the Garden" who said knowing the difference between right and wrong is a good thing. The same one who said" Yeah the big guy said he would kill you this very day but he was lying. You'll probably live almost a thousand years." The one who allowed us to gain "Free Will." Hint: it wasn't God.

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04-01-2003, 11:44 AM	#33
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Other than that, the miracles you say are everywhere through Scripture, aren't everywhere. God limits his miraculous intervention because he has chose to give us free will and let us experience the consequences of exercising that free will. So God honors mans free will except when he doesn't then. Is that what you are saying? Not a peep out of him except in some Bronze Age stories. Odd, don't you think, that he stopped doing miracles at the same time that Apollo and Zeus stopped doing miracles. Are the Olympic Gods honoring our free will too? I can't help but notice that the total inaction of Jesus looks exactly like the total inaction of Artemis at the WTC.

04-01-2003, 11:52 AM	#34
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Magus55: Well, in our opinion, with no God the evil in the world would self destruct itself and take over, in which case civilization probably wouldn't have survived long enough to get to 9/11. But assuming it did survive up until that point, I'd say there would be less unity in the world from it, more destraught families committing suicide or losing touch with reality due to lack of comfort. Less people would have lived etc. Don't really know, since I don't believe in a world where God doesn't exist, can't really speculate what it would be like without Him. Hell on earth probably. This seems to run counter to your "free will" argument. If god is indeed mucking about in our affairs to keep us from destroying ourselves, setting up "hell on earth", etc., then how do we truly have free will? To give us free exercise of our free will, shouldn't he let each of us, and us as a whole, do whatever we want, with whatever results come about from our free actions?

04-01-2003, 12:04 PM	#36
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Because He isn't affecting free will. If he intervenes to keep us from killing ourselves, then he damn sure is. God works independently of it. He just sustains creation and sometimes intervenes directly or indirectly. Give me an example of where god intervened directly, and another where he intervened indirectly. Then explain how his actions didn't interfere with our free will.

04-01-2003, 12:15 PM	#37
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	And by the way when we say that God takes no actions we aren't saying miracles. Mundane actions by God aren't being done either. God isn't comforting you, he doesn't get on the phone and say 'there there poor baby' to you. If God intervenes directly or indirectly he is still intervening. And your "free will" argument, which is based on nonintervention, is thereby shot. I know you want it both ways, and I can understand how afraid you are. But tough luck, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

04-01-2003, 03:51 PM	#39
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	It's not that other people don't deserve convincing. It is instead that God has done everything necessary to convince anyone who is willing to look at the evidence that he does exist. Well, I'm willing, and I've looked (for many years), but I'm not convinced. What does that tell you? He has given proof enough that Jesus is the very Son of God in the flesh - and he has chosen people to record that information for all time in his word. Hardly, as neither I nor many, many others are in the least convinced by the so-called "proof". Nope. The Bible is not the work of Satan. Why would Satan want to convince people to have a relationship of love with God. To fool people into not believing in the true god, the most Holy IPU (PBUHHH)?

04-01-2003, 04:56 PM	#40
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Remember who it was in "the Garden" who said knowing the difference between right and wrong is a good thing. The same one who said" Yeah the big guy said he would kill you this very day but he was lying. You'll probably live almost a thousand years." The one who allowed us to gain "Free Will." Hint: it wasn't God.

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