Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SLD · 07-08-2003, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyrrho
There are numerous reasons (causes) for why people believe ridiculous things; here are a few:

1. Many people are taught nonsense at an early age, when young and impressionable. Most religious people are indoctrinated at an early age, and believe based on that. Such early lessons can be extremely difficult to 'unlearn'.

2. Most people are never taught logic or critical thinking skills or scientific thinking very well, and those who are, are usually taught these things at a much later age than would be ideal. So, they would need to apply these things to other beliefs that are already deeply ingrained in them, which is difficult to do. After all, the critical thinking skills are almost always less deeply ingrained than the ridiculous beliefs. And again, most people never receive much training on these matters, so they are unable to tell the difference between reason and a hole in the ground.

3. Many ridiculous things are psychologically appealing. David Hume observed this fact:

http://www.etext.leeds.ac.uk/hume/ehu/ehupbsb.htm

4. Many frauds have been committed to provide "evidence" for ridiculous beliefs. After listing several examples, Hume observes:

http://www.etext.leeds.ac.uk/hume/ehu/ehupbsb.htm

5. People are pathetically stupid beings. Most people are under the delusion that people are rational and intelligent, but it is obvious that the actual evidence supports a contrary conclusion. But, this delusion flatters people (see # 3 above), so they are apt to believe it. This is known as "wishful thinking", which has very little to do with thinking, and a lot to do with wishing. It is also supported by such authorities as Aristotle, though even he was intelligent enough to not suppose that most people were rational; he is often misquoted and/or quoted out of context.

Given the fact that the evidence strongly supports the conclusion that people are pathetically stupid, the common belief that people have that people are intelligent is further evidence of their gross stupidity. There is hardly any fact supported by as much evidence as the fact that people are appallingly stupid.

Excellent post Pyrrho. Hume is an outstanding observer of human nature. Respectfully, though, Human beings intelligent levels vary. Calling humans appallingly stupid doesn't answer the question: Stupid compared to what? To each other? Well, OK, but that doesn't help answer why there are some very intelligent and very involved people (as I said before, some with Ph.D.'s) who believe bizarre things. Simply saying they are stupid to me doesn't answer the question.

SLD

SLD · 07-08-2003, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebeave
That magician was James "The Amazing" Randi, and he exposed Rev. Peter Popoff who claimed to be receiving worshippers' names from God, when actually he was receiving them via radio through a secret earplug. IIRC, Randi was in the audience and had his own little secret scanner/receiver and picked up on the transmissions himself. Popoff was disgraced for a while, but made somewhat of a comeback a few years later.

Thanks for the clarification Beave. I'd forgotten the details of the story I read quite a while back.

SLD

Barcode · 07-08-2003, 07:47 PM

I suppose anything that transcends the mundane must seem appealing. It's just that for people like me, the natural, living world and the Universe is more than enough to leave me awestruck without recourse to supernatural explanations.

SLD · 07-08-2003, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by paul30
A couple of decades ago, Lawrence Kohlberg did a study of people's moral development.

He found that people all develop through the same stages, but some stop at a certain stage. The first stage is reward-punishment. The second is group-identification. The third is independent evaluation.

The adults who "stop" at particular stages form a bell-shaped curve. Most people are in the middle, the group-identification stage. They get their morals from their group, and they accept them.

I think people's belief systems are similar. Most people believe whatever they are taught, because it makes them fit in with their peers. They do not question the beliefs, because the beliefs are not important in themselves, but only as group-markers. Much less do they examine the reasoning (?) behind the beliefs.

This is why many people believe George W. Bush is telling the truth, even when there are abundant reasons to think he lies. Many cannot countenance such a thought because it would (they think) destroy their all-important group identification.

Any thoughts on this?

:boohoo:

I recall reading this theory a while back. Indeed, group think is a powerful and frightening force. I once visited Rock Hill, SC, home of Jim and Tammy Faye Baker. This was at the height of their scandal and Jerry Falwell had just taken over their PTL Land (or whatever the place is called). Falwell was visiting that day and many people showed up to express their opposition to him and in favor of a return by Jim Baker who'd ripped them all off. I'll never forget the glazed looks on the eyes of his followers they wanted him back despite his "sins." I felt extremely uncomfortable (even though I wasn't a freethinker at the time), as if I were witnessing a Hitler rally. And that's what it was in essence; people blinded by their intense feelings for Jim Baker unable to see his flaws and following him despite all of the evidence of charlatry. That is how Hitler controlled the masses and that is how the holocaust happened - a complete failure by society to question and to look beyond the charisma of the man and the movement. I swear it still makes me shudder to think about it, because I then realized that it could happen here in the good 'ole USA that allegedly loves freedom. Scary thought group think is.

SLD

abe smith · 07-09-2003, 07:58 AM

Believing dubitable or unsubstantiated stuff is um probably a form of (Where's the smiley for "Custard pie In The Face"?) psychic masturbation : >>>> doing-that makes us feel-good, as (Insert obscene kinaesthetic non-verbal images here.) do..... (Let your fancy roam.)

architect · 07-09-2003, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barcode
I suppose anything that transcends the mundane must seem appealing. It's just that for people like me, the natural, living world and the Universe is more than enough to leave me awestruck without recourse to supernatural explanations.

I think this is why so many people find 'conspiracy theories' so appealing. It would be comforting if there were a small cabal of people who are really running everything behind the scenes, as opposed to the reality of a disorganized bureaucratic red-taped mess.

I see a lot of parallels between the throught processes of the conspiracy nuts and the religious nuts. And there's no proof for either.

Pyrrho · 07-09-2003, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SLD
Excellent post Pyrrho.

Thank you.

Quote:

Originally posted by SLD

Hume is an outstanding observer of human nature.

Yes.

Quote:

Originally posted by SLD

Respectfully, though, Human beings intelligent levels vary. Calling humans appallingly stupid doesn't answer the question: Stupid compared to what? To each other? Well, OK, but that doesn't help answer why there are some very intelligent and very involved people (as I said before, some with Ph.D.'s) who believe bizarre things. Simply saying they are stupid to me doesn't answer the question.

SLD

On the contrary, it does answer the question, or, rather, explains why there is not an answer as you wanted. I deny that any intelligent being believes the absurdities you list; it would be impossible. To again borrow from Hume:

Quote:

So that, upon the whole, we may conclude, that the Christian Religion not only was at first attended with miracles, but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person without one.

http://www.etext.leeds.ac.uk/hume/ehu/ehupbsb.htm

What you are asking is very much like this: How could there be a round square? Of course, there cannot, and likewise, there cannot be an intelligent being who believes the absurdities you claim intelligent people believe.

I suspect you are confusing an education with intelligence, but these are separate and distinct concepts. A Ph.D. is no sign of much intelligence, which is something you would know if you ever attended college. There are many stupid professors. And there are those who have not even graduated from high school who are not stupid enough to believe those things you list. Truly, intelligence and an education are not the same thing, and you are making a very serious mistake when you confuse the two.

Nom · 07-09-2003, 07:58 PM

Bear with me here...it's been a while since I read this (and it might have been the Schermer book mentioned earlier)...but one reason I'vee seen why people believe stupid things is information overload. We're faced with so many claims -- most of which use simple appeals to authority as evidence, i.e. a news story quoting an "expert" -- that it's become extremely difficult for people to judge what's BS and what's not. On top of that, what's "known" can change as quickly as the next published study. Food is a perfect example: butter was declared bad for you, too much fat, use margarine. Oops, wait a minute, margarine has trans-fatty acids, they're bad for you, use butter (and examples like that are compounded by companies that sell those products, who publicize selected information to get you to choose their product).

Another point has been raised in the wake of 9/11 and the SARS outbreak: people generally have no clue when it comes to statistics and risk assessment. The average American's chances of being killed in a terrorist attack are miniscule, while he/she's chances of falling over dead of a heart attack because they suck down too many Big Macs and pints of Haagen-Dazs are pretty damn good.

In short, people generally lack the skeptical arsenal needed to analyze claims they're faced with, and/or lack the time to apply those tools to the barrage of claims made. Heck, I'm sure that half of what I think I know is wrong. Now, if I could just figure out which half...

(My luck it'll be the "God doesn't exist" half)

Ispikes · 07-09-2003, 09:08 PM

People like to feel safe and for things to be certain. It's always good to know that there's someone bigger/stronger/wiser than you that will take care for you. It's comforting to know that you have a purpose - your life isn't an insignificant waste. Then there's death, the ultimate unknown, problems of justice (good things happen to bad people) and damn it there's just got to be something better.

Most people (intelligent or otherwise) don't want to face the possibility that this is it. People aren't primarily intellectual, there's social, cultural and emotional factors that may be more significant factors.

Aravnah Ornan · 07-10-2003, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Most people are never taught logic or critical thinking skills or scientific thinking very well, and those who are, are usually taught these things at a much later age than would be ideal.

Quite right. What's more, when schools do teach logic or critical thinking, they do so only in a narrow, abstract context, e.g., proving that two triangles are congruent. It's pretty rare that anyone points out that logic has a broader application. Since most people find geometry boring and irrelevant, they conclude that logical thought as a whole is boring and irrelevant.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-08-2003, 07:47 PM	#13
Barcode Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Portugal Posts: 633	I suppose anything that transcends the mundane must seem appealing. It's just that for people like me, the natural, living world and the Universe is more than enough to leave me awestruck without recourse to supernatural explanations.

07-09-2003, 07:58 AM	#15
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Believing dubitable or unsubstantiated stuff is um probably a form of (Where's the smiley for "Custard pie In The Face"?) psychic masturbation : >>>> doing-that makes us feel-good, as (Insert obscene kinaesthetic non-verbal images here.) do..... (Let your fancy roam.)

07-09-2003, 07:58 PM	#18
Nom Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Joisey Posts: 124	Bear with me here...it's been a while since I read this (and it might have been the Schermer book mentioned earlier)...but one reason I'vee seen why people believe stupid things is information overload. We're faced with so many claims -- most of which use simple appeals to authority as evidence, i.e. a news story quoting an "expert" -- that it's become extremely difficult for people to judge what's BS and what's not. On top of that, what's "known" can change as quickly as the next published study. Food is a perfect example: butter was declared bad for you, too much fat, use margarine. Oops, wait a minute, margarine has trans-fatty acids, they're bad for you, use butter (and examples like that are compounded by companies that sell those products, who publicize selected information to get you to choose their product). Another point has been raised in the wake of 9/11 and the SARS outbreak: people generally have no clue when it comes to statistics and risk assessment. The average American's chances of being killed in a terrorist attack are miniscule, while he/she's chances of falling over dead of a heart attack because they suck down too many Big Macs and pints of Haagen-Dazs are pretty damn good. In short, people generally lack the skeptical arsenal needed to analyze claims they're faced with, and/or lack the time to apply those tools to the barrage of claims made. Heck, I'm sure that half of what I think I know is wrong. Now, if I could just figure out which half... (My luck it'll be the "God doesn't exist" half)

07-09-2003, 09:08 PM	#19
Ispikes Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Nowhere interesting Posts: 164	People like to feel safe and for things to be certain. It's always good to know that there's someone bigger/stronger/wiser than you that will take care for you. It's comforting to know that you have a purpose - your life isn't an insignificant waste. Then there's death, the ultimate unknown, problems of justice (good things happen to bad people) and damn it there's just got to be something better. Most people (intelligent or otherwise) don't want to face the possibility that this is it. People aren't primarily intellectual, there's social, cultural and emotional factors that may be more significant factors.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.