Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rousseau_CHN · 12-10-2002, 01:44 AM

Liberal Catholic? I find it to be an oxymoron.
They cannot possibly exist. Arrowman said that to believe in pre-marital sex, divorce and the likes make you a liberal.

Well, yes, maybe...but only to a certain point. The real difference between liberalism and conservatism is the issue of authority.

Catholics of whatever beliefs adhere to the supremacy of the Pope. Though they may not always agree with his 'cathedra', they do recognize his authority.

You show me a Catholic who believes that power belongs to the people, and not to some (divinely inspired) individual...then I say there is your liberal Catholic.

You show me a Catholic who believes the doctrines of the Church should be voted upon by all the members, priests and lay person alike, then I say there is your liberal.

But so as long as a Catholic leaves the making of doctrines to higher authority, then I say do not write liberal and catholic under one sentence; unless you mean to say that a Catholic is not a liberal.

<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

Secular Pinoy · 12-10-2002, 04:14 AM

Well, having friends with a few liberal catholics, I must disagree.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rousseau_CHN:
Catholics of whatever beliefs adhere to the supremacy of the Pope. Though they may not always agree with his 'cathedra', they do recognize his authority.

American liberals (political and social) may disagree with GW Bush, but knowing that he is the (unelected) president, they nontheless recognize his authority. At least they fear his vast political power. Liberal catholics care little for the Vatican or the pope. My girlfriend, a moderate catholic, cares very little about religion or the Catholic Church even if she attends weekly mass.

Quote:

You show me a Catholic who believes that power belongs to the people, and not to some (divinely inspired) individual...then I say there is your liberal Catholic.

You must be thinking of conservative catholics. My catholic friends are carefree and live life to the fullest.

Quote:

You show me a Catholic who believes the doctrines of the Church should be voted upon by all the members, priests and lay person alike, then I say there is your liberal.

Goodness, I know a theology professor at a Jesuit School who wants a decentralized Catholic Church. Talk to any catholic, chances are, they would prefer a democratic church than what it is today.

Quote:

But so as long as a Catholic leaves the making of doctrines to higher authority, then I say do not write liberal and catholic under one sentence; unless you mean to say that a Catholic is not a liberal.

You haven't heard of catholic pro-choice organizations in America? Catholic pro-contraceptives? Not even catholic priests who want to get married and still remain ordained? Read the newspapers, they are out there trying to sway the church to become less conservative. Listen to the radio (AM). Listeners call-in everyday reciting grievances that the church ought to be lax in some of their doctrines.

I suggest you give them some slack. Not every catholic is your enemy. Not all of them are bad. In another post you called yourself a humanist. I say that you ought to be more charitable to other human beings, even if they are catholics.

Rousseau_CHN · 12-10-2002, 04:48 AM

Give them slack, S. Pinoy?

No need...I got carried away.
You know, na-excite lang

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Rousseau_CHN ]</p>

doodad · 12-10-2002, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrowman:
<strong>In another thread, Amie said:

I would enjoy such a discussion; I find the subject interesting. Not necessarily targeted at Amie in particular but more of a general discussion on "what do liberal Catholics believe?"

I am quite interested in this subject; to be honest with you I loath the institutional Catholic Church and yet most of the Catholics I have met (and indeed, dated

) have been quite liberal and not at all "in line with church doctrine" as it were.

In fact, my children will be attending a Catholic secondary school. (I expect to suffer some conflicts with that over the years but on balance it is a very good school, affordable, and I have atheist friends with children their, who recommend it).

Anyway, to kick off the discussion perhaps, one thing I find particularly interesting is this - since liberal Catholics seems to be at odds, in opinion or action, with so many aspects of Church doctrine, from birth control through premarital sex, to divorce, to regular attendance at Mass, to married or female priests, even homosexuality - why stay in the Church? If thew Catholic Church is so defined by doctrine, much of which you do not strictly follow, why not become an Anglican or whatever?

Is "liberal Catholic" an oxymoron?
Is a "liberal Catholic" a hypocrite?

Any liberal Catholics (including of course Amie) care to join in? Any atheists have experiences with liberal Catholics that they'd like to share?</strong>

Excuse me for butting in because I am a Protestant. Just thought someone might be interested on my perspective of the questions.

Liberal in the religious sense is relative to one's understanding or beliefs about the written word or scripture. A liberal Catholic to a Protestant would be considered more conservative than others because the term is saying that person doesn't adhere to or believe doctrine that is unique to or a trait of Catholicism. For example, a liberal Catholic may not care to pray to saints or to the Pope, but to a Protestant this is a virtue and is considered to be more conservative than those who do pray to saints and to the Pope. Liberal or conservative seems to be most meaningful within the dynamics of a particular sect.

Is the term "liberal Catholic" oxymoronic? It depend upon one's point of view. To a fundamentalist Protestant the term is not because fundies tend to associate Catholicism with liberalism in the spiritual or doctrinal sense.
To me, a somewhat moderate to liberal Protestant, the term makes sense, and I see it as meaning one who does not adhere to some of the doctrine that is a product of the Catholic church. Why? Some of the Catholic doctrine appears to be at odds with the Protestant view of scripture, and some seems to have little if any basis in scripture.

Ronin · 12-10-2002, 05:59 AM

~ and to the strong atheist, the more 'liberal' any theist is away from their hardcore dogma the closer they are to rational and practical thought.

JMO (not the Jesuit kind).

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12-10-2002, 01:44 AM	#21
Rousseau_CHN Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Nowhere Land Posts: 441	Liberal Catholic? I find it to be an oxymoron. They cannot possibly exist. Arrowman said that to believe in pre-marital sex, divorce and the likes make you a liberal. Well, yes, maybe...but only to a certain point. The real difference between liberalism and conservatism is the issue of authority. Catholics of whatever beliefs adhere to the supremacy of the Pope. Though they may not always agree with his 'cathedra', they do recognize his authority. You show me a Catholic who believes that power belongs to the people, and not to some (divinely inspired) individual...then I say there is your liberal Catholic. You show me a Catholic who believes the doctrines of the Church should be voted upon by all the members, priests and lay person alike, then I say there is your liberal. But so as long as a Catholic leaves the making of doctrines to higher authority, then I say do not write liberal and catholic under one sentence; unless you mean to say that a Catholic is not a liberal. <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

12-10-2002, 04:48 AM	#23
Rousseau_CHN Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Nowhere Land Posts: 441	Give them slack, S. Pinoy? No need...I got carried away. You know, na-excite lang [ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Rousseau_CHN ]</p>

12-10-2002, 05:59 AM	#25
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	~ and to the strong atheist, the more 'liberal' any theist is away from their hardcore dogma the closer they are to rational and practical thought. JMO (not the Jesuit kind).

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