Arrowman

In another thread, Amie said:

I would enjoy such a discussion; I find the subject interesting. Not necessarily targeted at Amie in particular but more of a general discussion on "what do liberal Catholics believe?"

I am quite interested in this subject; to be honest with you I loath the institutional Catholic Church and yet most of the Catholics I have met (and indeed, dated ) have been quite liberal and not at all "in line with church doctrine" as it were.

In fact, my children will be attending a Catholic secondary school. (I expect to suffer some conflicts with that over the years but on balance it is a very good school, affordable, and I have atheist friends with children their, who recommend it).

Anyway, to kick off the discussion perhaps, one thing I find particularly interesting is this - since liberal Catholics seems to be at odds, in opinion or action, with so many aspects of Church doctrine, from birth control through premarital sex, to divorce, to regular attendance at Mass, to married or female priests, even homosexuality - why stay in the Church? If thew Catholic Church is so defined by doctrine, much of which you do not strictly follow, why not become an Anglican or whatever?

Is "liberal Catholic" an oxymoron?
Is a "liberal Catholic" a hypocrite?

Any liberal Catholics (including of course Amie) care to join in? Any atheists have experiences with liberal Catholics that they'd like to share?

Amie

Hi Arrowman...here we go...

well when I say that I am a liberal catholic, I basically am saying that I am open minded about the things that the church is against. I know that my God belief stems from familial teachings and being raised with a God belief however the catholic church is really the only church I have ever known, it's where I attend mass, where I went to school, where my child goes to school...
However I take many of the teachings with a grain of salt. I recognize that there are good lessons biblically, but then there are also multitudes of contradictions and horrible things biblically speaking....

yeah the majority of people that I know don't adhere to all of the catechisms of catholicism...

They will be in excellent hands my friend, excellent
JMO

I think that the intentions of the church are positive, I believe that they really desire people to do what they feel is right, its just that someones "right" may very well be someone elses "wrong"...

As for me, I don't go to confession, I stopped doing so because I don't feel that I have to go to another human being to be absolved. I know I'm absolved. I feel that birth control is a personal choice and I really do not think the church should even be concerned with that at all...

God I am sounding like a horrible catholic here...

I do attend Mass regularly, receive the eucharist, I pray every day and there are 5 basic forms of prayer, I go through them all from time to time...I like my church, I like my priest since he's a good friend of mine, I do the readings at my church almost every Sunday. I give things up for lent and I try to fast but I get headaches without food...I think ultimately it is not the catholic church itself that means so much to me, I think it is my relationship with god that matters to me however the church is what I know, its what is familiar to me...

on a different note...I don't believe in Hell.

probably a bit of both...

Arrowman

But the Catholic Church is not as far as I know particularly wedded to Biblical literalism. Are the teachings you "take with a grain of salt" Church teachings alone (ie those with no specific, literal Biblical support) or direct Bible "teachings"?

Forgive me when I say that I find your turn of phrase rather spooky...

What does "JMO" mean?

Actually, my first "conflict" - or should I say, shock - happened the other night. I went to a new parents' orientation night. About 200 people sitting in the hall. The evening began with a prayer/invocation so I just prepared to sit quietly and ignore it.... then, as the magic words were spoken "In the name of the Father..." 199 people simultaneously crossed themselves. The massive (and noisy) movement of arms and rustling of clothing nearly made me quite literally jump out of my chair! I'm going to have to get used to that...

Amie

lol...thats ok hon so does my best friend

just my opinion...

I am laughing so hard right now...yeah you'll get use to it. Arrowman I cant recall the ago of your children. Are you going to have them participate in first communion, confessions...
here in California the catholic school kids go to mass every week during school, is it the same there? The education is good I think. Do your children believe in god? or not? I am just curious here...

grain of salt: doctrinal creeds, church teachings, bible, catechisms...I do take my belief in God seriously but even then I have questions...
I just don't take it all as seriously as some which leads some at my church to "pray for me" and give me the "unequally yolked" speech since most of my friends are nonbelievers...

[edit because once again I have screwed up quote boxes]

[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: Amie ]</p>

echidna

Greetings folks. Arrowman, FWIW my eldest attends a Catholic secondary school as well. Last term (being that tricky 15 year age bracket), she decided the religion was simply a waste of time & proceeds to check herself into the local state school, much to the great annoyance of her Catholic school where she was class captain.

Home was tricky at the time & we felt it best to support her decision for better or worse. I warned her that IMO, despite the religion, Catholic schools actually give a very solid education as distinct from Victoria’s state schools where I see a tragic lack of discipline & teacher support.

Term began & she attended her first day at the new State school. It was enough & she came home wanting to return to her Catholic school. Teachers screaming at kids, kids screaming back & in the middle, no learning going on.

So we begged & cajoled & her old school took her back, much to our delight after a week.

I still maintain that Catholic schools are probably the best value for money one can get. Not free like our entirely secular state school, but not as crippling as a grammar school either.

Having skimmed her Religious Education material as well, I don’t see a whole lot objectionable, maybe some a little eyebrow raising, but at the end of the day I think she’s smart enough to figure things out for herself.

Arrowman

Oh, of course. I thought it might have something to do with Jesuits

The children are 12 1/2 (girl) and 11 (twin boys). Girl starts in Year 8 next year, the boys 2 years later also in Year 8.

No, they won't be doing first communion, confession etc. The school population is only part (albeit mostly) Catholic so they don't "expect everyone to be a Catholic" although they do have a compulsory Religious Ed subject which I think I might find interesting... I suppose there'll be prayers at school assembly and that sort of thing but not Mass - at least, not for the non-Catholic kids.

OTOH If I did find the kids being required to participate in Catholic ritual, I would have a polite word to the school. I have no problem with the kids participating in the ritual of their grandparents' church, but it's going too far to join in with a church that's not even in the family. I've been to Mass and noone expects you to take communion or whatever they call it if you're not a Catholic. I don't see why any other aspect of doctrine should be different.

Their mother's family is Anglican; they go to church with the ex in-laws fortnightly. My ex doesn't go to church a lot, but she goes along with the church thing and is a sort of apathetic theist, I suppose. She has had the eldest confirmed in the Anglican church (and the boys will follow) and I have not objected; I think her motivation has more to do with (a) going along with her parents' expectations and (b) wanting to ensure acceptance of their enrolment at the school (she thought they had a better chance of being accepted if they are members of a church - I don't know if she's right or not but who cares).

The school does seem to assume that "everyone's a Christian" and I just zipped my lip during the interviews with the principal etc. I wonder if that assumption is just a sort of naïve ignorance of the presence of the genuinely non-religious in society (or an assumption that the non-religious wouldn't approach their school in the first place), or whether they would outright reject the enrolment of an overt atheist.

Do they (the kids) believe? I don't think so - only in a Santa Claus sort of way, anyway. Pretty much the same as me when I was that age and my parents took me to church. They find church boring (and it is - honestly, I don't know how the Anglican Church expects to sustain its membership) and my daughter groaned at the sight of the Religious Ed subject in the school handbook.

Actually, I'm kind of looking forward to the RE subject - much as I don't want my kids wasting valuable school time on that stuff, it could make for some interesting homework assistance! My only real worry is that my daughter will find the RE such a turn off that she won't get the requisite pass mark. I think it might be a valuable experience for her to learn to study a subject out of pure intellectual interest without actually immersing herself in the belief.

Thanks for talking; I'm going offline now, and probably for a few days due to lots of commitments. See you next time.

Arrowman

Hello echidna. Damn - I'm on my way to a whisky tasting and you pop up! I'll just say - thanks for your post; it sounds like we are in a similar situation and I am encouraged by what you say.

Yeah, I don't mind saying I get a frisson of pleasure at the knowledge that the Catholic Church is effectively subsidising the education of this atheist's kids

As for the RE - yes, I would rather it wasn't there at all but otoh it is there, so you might as well do it and at least learn something from it even if only as an intellectual exercise. I haven't seen detailed course content and I am glad that you don't find it all that bad. Different school of course, but very likely similar curriculum so I am hopeful.

Cheers. I;m off to drink whisky.

Secular Pinoy

Yes it does. It stands for the Jesuits Mind Orientation. It's part of their Theology 121:Church and Sacraments course. The syllabus is written by one Fr. Xavier Kostka Berchmans Bellarmine de Loyola, S.J.

You will find out that Jesuits don't think too highly of either Dominicans or the Opus Dei. Some kind of rivalry and power struggle behind the scenes in the Vatican, I think.

Jesuit schools are some of the best places to get a good education. Not terribly dogmatic, and even tolerant of non-traditional beliefs. Though they will try to get you to see the light.

Ut

Here in the province of Quebec we are Catholics. The overwhelming majority of us (at least in urban areas) are opposed to all the aspects of Church doctrine you listed. In fact, Quebec is one of the most liberal places in North America.

We stay in the Church mostly for cultural reasons, just like in Ireland. People don't really care whether you believe you are really eating Christ's body during communion, what they care is whether you are of French descent (hence Catholic) or of British descent (hence Protestant).

Anyway, this use of religion as a cultural distinction is fading fast, since anyway most people here don't give a shit about religion.

thebeave

This is interesting. I have dated at least two women in the past who were raised Catholic and proudly called themselves Catholic, but their actions seemed highly Un-Catholic to me. They were both pro-choice, used birth control, had pre-marital sex, were pro-divorce (one was married and divorced 3 times!), were pro-gay rights (one had a lesbian sister), etc. Although I didn't question them about it (I'm sure I would have suffered their wrath if I had), I always that it odd that they can call themselves Catholic, yet ignore much of the key doctrines of the Church. Why even identify yourself as Catholic? I finally decided that they were Catholic up to the point to where it started to become an inconvenience or hardship to them.