tronvillain

Bluebird:
Sounds possible, but that obviously wasn't what we were talking about. Do you mean that cattle grazing destroyed habitat, that habitat was destroyed to create grazing areas, or that cattle stepped on the animals in question?

KJELLMUSIC

So again, I repost this:

If eating meat were about morality then would it be "immoral" for a herbivore to eat meat...or would it be "immoral" for a carnivore to eat meat? And since people who subscribe to "morality" usually have punishments in mind for breaking "moral" laws/rules, what sort of punishments need to be brought to bear on herbivores and carnivores that do so much as taste flesh. Do worms and bugs qualify as meat or does it have to be muscle tissue...and would it have to be the whole live subject that is consumed or would being left alive but partially consumed be enough?
Is it limited to life that qualifies as "animal"?
What if you were in an enviroment (natural or unnatural) with limited food supply and eating animals was necessary for survival? How does survival factor into it? Before learning to grow crops surviving meant also eating animals. I'm
not sure that you can define eating meat as ONLY a pleasureable activity because there are other food
choices. You assume that the same choices are always there for everyone, always have been and
always will be. When starving, eating just about anything would be pleasurable because you are
fullfilling your body's needs.
Then does choice equal immorality or unethical behavior?
How do other meat-eating animals and the web of life fit into this? Or does it only apply to the human species because they fallen out of sync with the natural world?

Are you kidding? Intellectual honesty in religion?

brighid

According to Singer, "we should give the same respect to the lives of animals as we give to the lives of those humans at a similar mental level".

The problem I have with this statement is that a cow or a pig does not have a similar mental level to me, or most humans, except perhaps President Bush The ability to feel pain is not, nor should it be an indicator of mental ability. It is not. It is a response to stimuli that any being with a functioning nervous system can appreciate and demonstrate a response to. But pain plays little role on the ability of a being to formulate thought or develop a moral system, hence placing it at a similar mental level as a human animal.

I doubt the antelope that flees from the lion and is then eaten has lacks pain receptors and does not feel the pain of the lion’s teeth as it rips apart its flesh. However, it is not immoral for the lion to eat the antelope and we can argue that the lion and antelope have similar mental abilities/levels.

It’s far fetched to say that humans would experience less pain if they did not eat meat. A human is not caused pain by eating meat. A human may develop diseases because he or she over eats any type of nutrient source and therefore cause pain, but it was not the eating of that specific nutrient that caused the disease or pain. It was the overindulgence that causes that pain/disease, either immediately or later in life. Moderation is the key!

I also take issue with the statistics about protein needs as most often these needs are used for sedentary people. An active person requires more to maintain proper muscle mass and those who engage in strenuous activities require more nutrients, including protein. The problem with a vegetarian diet for an active person or an athlete is that it requires one to eat more calories in order to also eat the right amount of protein to maintain and build muscle mass. And if you are on a specific diet to help boost and maintain your athletic performance it is difficult to eat a strictly vegetarian diet, without blowing your caloric intake and increasing your body fat and inhibiting your athletic performance. The differential in necessary protein intake also varies between the sexes because of overall body mass, which tends to be greater in males. A diet rich in whole fruits and vegetables, whole grains and nuts, as well as lean sources of protein – such as fish, egg whites (the best protein source), lean chicken, lead red meat and soy protein, along with the proper vitamin and mineral supplementation is the best way to maintain physical health and a proper body mass ratio.

We cannot eliminate harming any other living being (insect or otherwise) while getting the proper nutrition a human needs to grow and live a healthy life. The harvesting of crops kills many beings – and there is likely little “mental” difference between the abilities of the mole that gets torn up by harvesting machinery and the cow that is slaughtered in the slaughterhouse.

Some people do well on a vegetarian diet and others do not. I know many people who difficulty digesting soy, even though soy is very good for you and one should consume about 25 g of soy protein a day. I usually get my soy protein from supplements like protein shakes or a health food bar (Genisoy products are good.) Tofu is too fattening and I don’t particularly care for the taste. I also know of people who have become healthier because of eliminating meat and/or dairy products from their diet. I think each person needs to evaluate their limitations (i.e.: lactose intolerance, food allergies, etc) when determining the best diet for them. If you are athletic and desire a certain amount of lean body mass you may find it difficult to maintain that muscle mass on a strictly vegetarian diet. When I am active a vegetarian diet makes me look very thin and it just doesn’t look healthy. When I am not working out I restrict my intake of meat because then I get fat! But when I am working out regularly, with aerobic and anaerobic exercise I have not found an adequate vegetarian diet that meets my needs for protein and calories. I simply don’t perform as well athletically and that can be a big downer for me. When I am running between 12 and 15 miles a week I have to up my carbohydrate and protein intake or I seriously fade out during my runs. A meat and potatoes diet (which is a very common and tasty one) is bad because it is not balanced. If you were to incorporate whole grains, fruits, vegetables, legumes and nuts with that you diet would be perfectly healthy. Oh – and we cannot forget the addition of chocolate in that too Goodness gracious – a diet without chocolate is not worth eating!

Also, a diet that does not incorporate meat products is not per say healthier then a diet with meat products. Spin commented about how he eats lots of pizza and drinks lots of juice. This diet has an overload of carbohydrates (which adds fat to your butt right quick), a lack of adequate and lean protein (cheese is great, but does not have a lot of protein and is high in saturated ANIMAL fat) and juices contain too much sugar and carbs and not enough fiber. Juices drank alone cause your insulin production to spike and thereby cause fat production to begin. Talk about a total lack of necessary amino acids, omegas, fiber and any redeeming vitamins – that diet is a one that has heart attack and colon cancer written all over it! Again – balance is the key!

I find no reason to cease all in take of animal products. I find good reason to purchase as much food as I can afford from responsible merchants who grow their foods organically, without dangerous pesticides, who allow their animals to graze free range and who harvest things humanely. The cycle of life is birth, life, death (which sometimes means beings become food for other beings) and so on. We cannot live without the forfeiture of life of many different types of living organisms – plant, animal and mineral. We should do our best to conserve our resources and treat all life with respect and dignity, but it is impossible to escape the cycle of birth, life, death and rebirth or our planet and it’s resources.


Brighid

Sorry this isn't as well thought out - I have had the flu for three days and my brain is still in a bit of a fog

Bluebird

tronvillan:
I think the first two, although the third option gave me quite a funny image of cows playing "wack-a-mole" with the gophers. I will try to look up a source for this but please give me some time. I am pretty swamped with other things right now.

My only point in mentioning the wild animals was to present another potential negative side of mass producing cows which I do think is part of what is being discussed in this thread.

Bluebird

Bluebird

Brighid:
Here is a website for and about <a href="http://bodybuilding.about.com/cs/vegetarianbb/" target="_blank">vegetarian bodybuilders</a>. I agree that being a vegetarian in general, not just an athlete, requires more attention to what is being eaten but I don't think it is as painfully difficult as some people make it out to be.

Bluebird

[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: Bluebird ]

[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: Bluebird ]</p>

YHWH666

survival and pleasure are 2 diffrent things. lions must eat prey to survive. if humans tried to meddle with that we would probably cause more death than we would prevent.

brighid

Bluebird,

I know of these vegetarian bodybuilders The point of my post is that it does not work for every one. It works well for some, and not for others. Each person needs to be in touch with their own personal needs and be aware of how their body functions and adapt their diet accordingly. I think each person should attempt to achieve optimal health and for some it cannot be achieved through a vegetarian diet or one with meat. A vegetarian diet can be difficult to adhere to, depending on where you live and what sort of access you have to supplementation, etc.

Here is what Jane Black (one of those bodybuilders you linked to) has to say:

Many athletes are concerned about adequate protein intake. Explaining her experiences, Jane says, "According to various elite weightlifting coaches, the protein requirement for a highly competitive weightlifter is 2 to 2½ grams per kilo of bodyweight. If I adhered to that, I would be eating about 150 or so grams of protein, which I feel is ridiculous. I eat probably about 60-75. I have never had a problem building strength. The variables for strength building vary greatly for individuals—genetics, general state of health, and training program. All of these factors and more must be monitored ongoingly if a person wants to take on a sport, or build strength or explosive power, which Olympic lifting is all about. I fully believe that a person can be incredibly strong as a vegan. If you are going for a bodybuilder 'look,' i.e., extreme hypertrophy, low body fat, a vegan diet will have its drawbacks ..

I would like for her to provide some more information as to why she feels this protein ratio is wrong in general. The recommendations many high performance female athletes adhere to is a 25/55/20 (protein/carbs/fat) ratio for healthy eating. This is for 6 meals small meals per day. I place emphasis on her statements about genetics because not everyone is gifted genetically to be able to build or maintain athletic physiques. Therefore further supporting the idea that each person must evaluate their abilities individually and follow a diet that is most sensible for his or her needs.

Steve Holt’s site has almost triple the protein intake as Jane’s does. She recommends 60-75 grams where as his sample diet has 179 grams. Again, each persons body (genetics) and training program will require a lower intake. Sedentary people should probably stay around the 60 –75 grams of protein per day.

I think the last 5 years has brought about a positive change in the availability of these types of items in the local grocery store, at least in urban and more developed suburban areas. Also one’s ability to purchase many of these items can be restricted by income. Free-range eggs, chicken and beef are not cheap by me – there are anywhere between 2 and three times as expensive. And supplements like whey and soy protein aren’t exactly inexpensive either. 7 servings of either range about $15.00 (premixed is about $20.00 for 7-8 servings) increase that by the number of members of your household and it gets pretty expensive. Few single serving soy products contain the recommended daily intake of 25 g and therefore I usually get that from two separate daily supplements. And the plant-based omega’s we buy are about $30 a bottle (can’t think of the quantity off hand)- Udos Choice. If we remember to take two per meal we got through that in a bout 10 days or less. We also take vitamins – not a single multi vitamin, but a combination of 6 (or more) and we are fortunate to find an inexpensive brand that costs $14.00 for 30 packets. Most other brands cost about $26-29 for 30 packets. And these are things ever person needs, not just active people or athletes in order to maintain optimum health. Thankfully spring is here (although not where I live) and our organic vegetables will be available from a local grower soon!

I hope as societal pressure increases for more humane choices that more people are able to adhere to a lifestyle where they can afford these choices regularly.

A complete vegetarian diet does not work for my body. Like Bree I have endometriosis and the addition of chicken in my diet really helps curb the pain I suffer from. Also, I have found no information that credibly supports that idea that the elimination of all animal products, flesh or otherwise is more beneficial over all. But I have found plenty of evidence that supports a balanced diet rich in whole foods and lean protein sources, along with regular exercise and adequate sleep to be the best overall plan in for optimal health in general. But I am always open to new ideas.

Brighid

Pensee

First of all, I am only talking about humans. Humans can reason and determine right from wrong (that's why most of us here have abandoned religion). Secondly, I do not assume that everyone has the same choices that I do. I said it is immoral to eat meat WHEN other options are available. If I had no other food, hell I'd slaughter the cow myself. But the fact remains that I DO have other food. I am not starving. There are plenty of veggies, fruits, legumes, grains available to me. If there weren't, then yes, I would eat meat. IN A HEARTBEAT!

For the most part, I don't think that morality should be governed. Obviously, some morality (that which harms other humans) needs to be governed. Deciding whether or not to eat meat is a personal choice. I don't have the right to force my morals on anyone else. I know I wouldn't want anyone to force their morals on me. Therefore, it shouldn't have a punishment.


I am not kidding. I am dead serious. I think I didn't clarify what I meant. I was beginning to have intellectual honesty with my religion. That's why I was in the process of abandoning it. For the first time, I let myself focus on the reality of the parts of my religion that were uncomfortable, the parts I had never let myself see before. I was also doing the same thing with eating meat. I realized that I was causing needless suffering. I quit eating meat and shortly after that I gave up all notions of god.

KJELLMUSIC

I kind of figured you would pick up on the "when there are options" part. But isn't that just an adjustable morality that wouldn't really hold much water...kind of like it's bad to sin but if you do sin then you can confess to a priest it goes away.
And why would intellect level be a deciding factor between species? My dog takes great pleasure in eating meat (even though I don't give it to him and he isn't starving). Have we determinded that humans are the most intellectually advanced species simply due to the fact that we are the most successful (successful at wrecking the balance of life on the planet which will utimately lead to our destruction)? We are not that fluent in all animal language to make that determination that I know of and just because we have appendages that can do complicated things doesn't mean too much. I think that this discussion cannot exclude other species that eat meat (or don't).
What of humans with little intellect or impared individuals with intellect that is lower than many animals?
My point is that it would seem to be less "morality for humans" and more "just my personal opinion" about wether or not to eat meat. There are too many factors, species, situations, etc. to put it into a neat little box.

Glad to hear that you didn't mean that intellectual honesty was an inherrent part of religion.

Bluebird

Brighid

First I want to say that I think you have a great attitude about nutrition and healthy living in general (especially about the essential nature of chocolate! ) Also, if chicken helps curb the pain endometriosis gives you, I am not going to say I think you still shouldn't eat it, I think it would be horrible actually for me to do so. Just out of curiosity, do other meats help the pain as well, or other non-animal high protein foods or other foods? Maybe this is an inappropriate question to ask on this thread...I am not always sure of protocol in the forum! Just ignore it if it is.

I do not advocate a universal vegetarian diet. Few of my friends are vegetarian, and in fact most of them are so picky they would starve to death on such a diet. I am trying to move my life away from these black and white views, all or none. ("Abortions for all. BOOOO. Abortions for no one. BOOOO."-- Sorry, couldn't help the Simpson's reference!)

However, I do think far too many people have serious misconceptions of a vegetarian diet and that is what I am trying to respond to in your posts, not your particular choice to eat meat. I cannot tell you the number of times the response I get when I tell someone I am a vegetarian is, "Oh, every vegetarian I know is always sick." Sure, plenty of vegetarians are unhealthy, but plenty of omnivores are obese and that ain't healthy either. I somehow perceive that many people think you can't eat healthy balanced diets or be athletic and be a vegetarian and from personal experience I know that both my boyfriend and I are quite healthy and physically active (well, until school gets too busy). I do have to be careful about protein and I probably sometimes don't get enough. But as I mentioned in a post earlier in this thread, I eat far healthier now than I did as a meat eater.

These misconceptions of vegetarianism kept me from becoming a vegetarian for far longer than I wanted to be one and I don't want that to happen to other people. I do agree with you that the choice to become a vegetarian is a personal choice and, like all good diet ads say, "Any change to ones diet should be discussed with a medical professional first." I just hope that people recognize that plenty of people survive quite healthily without eating meat. Complete non sequitur, Burger King is going to start offering veggie burgers.

Bluebird

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