Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DonnieDarko · 01-12-2003, 10:49 PM

I agreed to go to church with my Mom this morning, after a few weeks of her asking me. I thought it would be interesting because I haven't been in years. My Mom is a very fundamentalist Southern Baptist so you might imagine how fun that was. I decided long ago not to discuss my personal beliefs with her because it would cause a lot of trouble, and would basically break her heart.

The really interesting thing was what the sermon was about. The basic theme was hell, and the verses that we read were Luke 16, verses 19-31. This is the story of a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus (not the Lazarus who was raised from the dead in another story). I had several questions about these verses, but I didn't feel comfortable asking the preacher after the service. Seemed kind of confrontational.

In these verses Jesus tells this story to his disciples. A rich man and a poor beggar named Lazarus both die. The beggar is carried by angels to "Abraham's bosom" while the rich man goes straight to hell. While in hell the rich man sees the beggar Lazarus in Abraham's bosom from afar and begs for him to be allowed to bring him water to wet his tongue. Abraham basically says, "No, sorry, you had the good life while you were alive while Lazarus suffered. Now the tables are turned. Tough shit". The rich man then begs Abraham to send Lazarus to his father's house to warn his 5 brothers about hell, and Abraham basically says, "Sorry, but they have Moses and the prophets to listen to. Tough shit again".

It seems pretty unfair to me, but hey its the Bible, who said it was fair. The main question I had immediately after reading this was about the rich man being able to see Lazarus and Abraham from hell. He "lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom". So does this mean heaven and hell are side by side? Wouldn't it be kind of depressing to be in heaven and see all those souls in torment just next door? I guess you could say it would add to the torment of those in hell to see the bliss of heaven, but I can't think of any reason for the opposite to be true, unless it was for the people in heaven to gloat about it to the people in hell.

Abraham even tells the rich man there is a great chasm separating them so no one can go back and forth. Maybe the people in hell could get together and build a bridge, then just go crash the heaven party next door.

The preacher then took this weird turn towards criticizing Jews. He said that since the rich man called Abraham "Father Abraham" that meant he was a Jew. I thought that was fair enough. But then he did this strange thing were sort of made fun of the temples, rituals, ceremonies, etc. of the Jews and said none of that would get you into heaven, only being born again through Christ would. I can't remember exactly what he said, because I was a bit stunned at how much bullshit was coming out of his mouth and how the congregation was eating it up. I could tell by the numerous "Amens" I heard. After this several more questions came to mind. Wasn't Jesus the one telling this story? Doesn't that mean it took place sometime before Jesus was crucified? Exactly how was this rich man supposed to be "born again"? And exactly what did this rich man do wrong? He was a Jew...so was nearly everyone in the Old Testament. And this beggar Lazarus, does that mean he was born again because he made it to heaven? Did he somehow miraculously accept Jesus as his savior, possibly in a time before Jesus was even born, but certainly in a time where he wouldn't have heard of Jesus?

One last thing I just thought about as I was reading the verses again to make sure I had the right ones. After the second "tough shit" from Abraham where he tells the rich man his brothers have "Moses and the prophets", the rich man says that they will repent if Lazarus comes to them because he comes from the dead. Abrahams reply to this was "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead". You would think since Jesus was telling this story he would have been paying attention. It was apparently useless for him to rise from the dead, because its still not going to be enough to convince some people.

Anyone want to take a stab at what the answers would have been had I actually asked the preacher about these things?

Sorry if this doesn't belong in this forum, it started as a criticisim of the Bible but sort of turned into a criticisim of the preacher.

Greg2003 · 01-13-2003, 10:34 AM

Get all your REAL CHRISTIAN answers

[advert / solicitation deleted - Peter Kirby]

Greg2003 · 01-13-2003, 10:40 AM

BTW, the christian answers website

[commercial deleted]

Bobzammel · 01-19-2003, 06:01 PM

It's commonly believed to be a parable. I think the point is, that like the Beautitudes, the Sermon on the Mount, some other parables and his address to the rich man, Jesus is saying that Heaven isn't for those who are rich. Buddha and other spiritual leaders had similar attacks on the rich. Interestingly this is from the same God who made people rich in the OT for following the law, like Solomon and Job.

Suppose Pat Robertson is in big trouble

Psycho Economist · 01-19-2003, 06:46 PM

In Ken's Guide to the Bible (by Ken Smith, who's Roadside America series debunks the stuff on roadside historical markers), he points out that certainly not Abraham, and very few of the prophets say Earthly riches lead straight to hell... no wonder the poor guy had no clue.

beastmaster · 01-19-2003, 07:13 PM

<devil's advocacy from a life-long atheist>

It's a parable, so it shouldn't be taken literally that people in hell can speak with people in heaven. It's just a literary device.

The moral of the story is that -- as far as Jews are concerned -- happy, rich Jews go to hell and miserable Jews go to heaven.

The parable has no application to the fate of born-agains. Neither Lazarus nor the rich man had accepted Christ as their savior. [However, we can infer from other passages that born-agains get a free pass to heaven that has no relationship to their earthly comforts -- this is due to the miracle of Christ's salvation.]

</devil's advocacy from a life-long atheist>

You would think since Jesus was telling this story he would have been paying attention. It was apparently useless for him to rise from the dead, because its still not going to be enough to convince some people.

You're right. I think this might be a [minor] contradiction: either Christ's resurrection was futile or else Abraham's refusal to warn the rich man's brothers was unwarranted and merciless.

01-12-2003, 10:49 PM	#1
DonnieDarko Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The home of Bob Jones University Posts: 1,053	So I went to church this morning..... I agreed to go to church with my Mom this morning, after a few weeks of her asking me. I thought it would be interesting because I haven't been in years. My Mom is a very fundamentalist Southern Baptist so you might imagine how fun that was. I decided long ago not to discuss my personal beliefs with her because it would cause a lot of trouble, and would basically break her heart. The really interesting thing was what the sermon was about. The basic theme was hell, and the verses that we read were Luke 16, verses 19-31. This is the story of a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus (not the Lazarus who was raised from the dead in another story). I had several questions about these verses, but I didn't feel comfortable asking the preacher after the service. Seemed kind of confrontational. In these verses Jesus tells this story to his disciples. A rich man and a poor beggar named Lazarus both die. The beggar is carried by angels to "Abraham's bosom" while the rich man goes straight to hell. While in hell the rich man sees the beggar Lazarus in Abraham's bosom from afar and begs for him to be allowed to bring him water to wet his tongue. Abraham basically says, "No, sorry, you had the good life while you were alive while Lazarus suffered. Now the tables are turned. Tough shit". The rich man then begs Abraham to send Lazarus to his father's house to warn his 5 brothers about hell, and Abraham basically says, "Sorry, but they have Moses and the prophets to listen to. Tough shit again". It seems pretty unfair to me, but hey its the Bible, who said it was fair. The main question I had immediately after reading this was about the rich man being able to see Lazarus and Abraham from hell. He "lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom". So does this mean heaven and hell are side by side? Wouldn't it be kind of depressing to be in heaven and see all those souls in torment just next door? I guess you could say it would add to the torment of those in hell to see the bliss of heaven, but I can't think of any reason for the opposite to be true, unless it was for the people in heaven to gloat about it to the people in hell. Abraham even tells the rich man there is a great chasm separating them so no one can go back and forth. Maybe the people in hell could get together and build a bridge, then just go crash the heaven party next door. The preacher then took this weird turn towards criticizing Jews. He said that since the rich man called Abraham "Father Abraham" that meant he was a Jew. I thought that was fair enough. But then he did this strange thing were sort of made fun of the temples, rituals, ceremonies, etc. of the Jews and said none of that would get you into heaven, only being born again through Christ would. I can't remember exactly what he said, because I was a bit stunned at how much bullshit was coming out of his mouth and how the congregation was eating it up. I could tell by the numerous "Amens" I heard. After this several more questions came to mind. Wasn't Jesus the one telling this story? Doesn't that mean it took place sometime before Jesus was crucified? Exactly how was this rich man supposed to be "born again"? And exactly what did this rich man do wrong? He was a Jew...so was nearly everyone in the Old Testament. And this beggar Lazarus, does that mean he was born again because he made it to heaven? Did he somehow miraculously accept Jesus as his savior, possibly in a time before Jesus was even born, but certainly in a time where he wouldn't have heard of Jesus? One last thing I just thought about as I was reading the verses again to make sure I had the right ones. After the second "tough shit" from Abraham where he tells the rich man his brothers have "Moses and the prophets", the rich man says that they will repent if Lazarus comes to them because he comes from the dead. Abrahams reply to this was "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead". You would think since Jesus was telling this story he would have been paying attention. It was apparently useless for him to rise from the dead, because its still not going to be enough to convince some people. Anyone want to take a stab at what the answers would have been had I actually asked the preacher about these things? Sorry if this doesn't belong in this forum, it started as a criticisim of the Bible but sort of turned into a criticisim of the preacher.

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01-13-2003, 10:34 AM	#2
Greg2003 Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Lancaster, PA Posts: 167	Get all your REAL CHRISTIAN answers [advert / solicitation deleted - Peter Kirby]

01-13-2003, 10:40 AM	#3
Greg2003 Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Lancaster, PA Posts: 167	BTW, the christian answers website [commercial deleted]

01-19-2003, 06:01 PM	#4
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	It's commonly believed to be a parable. I think the point is, that like the Beautitudes, the Sermon on the Mount, some other parables and his address to the rich man, Jesus is saying that Heaven isn't for those who are rich. Buddha and other spiritual leaders had similar attacks on the rich. Interestingly this is from the same God who made people rich in the OT for following the law, like Solomon and Job. Suppose Pat Robertson is in big trouble

01-19-2003, 06:46 PM	#5
Psycho Economist Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 854	In Ken's Guide to the Bible (by Ken Smith, who's Roadside America series debunks the stuff on roadside historical markers), he points out that certainly not Abraham, and very few of the prophets say Earthly riches lead straight to hell... no wonder the poor guy had no clue.

01-19-2003, 07:13 PM	#6
beastmaster Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Madrid / I am a: Lifelong atheist Posts: 885	<devil's advocacy from a life-long atheist> It's a parable, so it shouldn't be taken literally that people in hell can speak with people in heaven. It's just a literary device. The moral of the story is that -- as far as Jews are concerned -- happy, rich Jews go to hell and miserable Jews go to heaven. The parable has no application to the fate of born-agains. Neither Lazarus nor the rich man had accepted Christ as their savior. [However, we can infer from other passages that born-agains get a free pass to heaven that has no relationship to their earthly comforts -- this is due to the miracle of Christ's salvation.] </devil's advocacy from a life-long atheist> You would think since Jesus was telling this story he would have been paying attention. It was apparently useless for him to rise from the dead, because its still not going to be enough to convince some people. You're right. I think this might be a [minor] contradiction: either Christ's resurrection was futile or else Abraham's refusal to warn the rich man's brothers was unwarranted and merciless.

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