Freethought & Rationalism Archive

liquid · 03-10-2002, 09:12 AM

Quote:

I trust that students there study Physics, Chemistry and Biology as core subjects and that Evolutionism or Creationism are taught only as part of a humanities "History of Ideas" cirriculum.

No, evolution is taught, correctly, in biology. It forms a substantial part of the curriculum from 14 onwards.

Quote:

1. Are British schools subject to an accreditation process, separate from government, that certifies and re-certifies that they are preparing students adequately and according to set standards, as occurs in US schools?

OFSTED is the schools inspectorate, that visits every state school once every couple of years, assesses its teaching and produces a public report. It is organizationally seperate from government, but is funded from the public purse. It is apolitical.

Quote:

2. Is it still true that the British government still constitutionally holds the Church of England to be the established church in England, supports C. of E. financially and makes Parliament and the Monarch joint head and arbiter of the Faith?

The CoE is the established church in England. The Queen is the head of both church and state. Parliament controls the state, but is not at all head of the church or under command of the Queen. The church is not massively politically powerful, a few bishops sit in the House of Lords (read Senate, only far less powerful), and the church as a whole comments on little other than social, moral issues and the occasional war. Parliament is not forced to listen to it.

Neither does it represent the Queen, as the church is really run by the Archbishop of Canterbury. The prime minister chooses the Archbishop every so often (or rather, 'recommends' one to the Queen). The church has no similar control over parliament, except the aforementioned seats in the Lords.

The church is pretty moderate and wishy-washy. It accepts science, including evolution, restricting itself almost entirely to moral and spiritual turf.

DireStraits · 03-10-2002, 01:18 PM

There is no such thing as a British Constitution.

DS: You are wrong. It may not be written, but there very definitely is such a thing. I knew several people who took an A-level in the subject known as "British Constitution" or Brit Con" for short.

liquid · 03-10-2002, 01:32 PM

DS, as I mentioned above, there either is or is not a british constitution depending on how you define it. There is no single document called the 'constitution'. There are many documents and precedents that function as a constitution in a general sense.

DireStraits · 03-10-2002, 01:33 PM

Britain has no formal 'constitution'.

DS: Strange then that the definition of the type of government is "Constitutional Monarchy."

Our society is based on precedent and legal agreements like the Magna Carta; we essentially evolved our structure rather than have it designed in one swoop like the USA. In fact, I am not aware of any other fully-recognised countries in the world that do not have a written constitution.

DS: Neither am I. I think it's unique in having no "written" constitution.

But don't be mistaken - its as binding as any constitution.

DS: That's because it is a constitution. Do a search on Google for "british constitution". I got about 8000 hits.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

it has been required by law ever since there have been state-run schools in England that only one subject is absolutely mandated, and that is religious instruction, and also that every day begin with an act of communal worship.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That simply is not true. RE is not mandated in all schools at all stages of education. Where RE does take place, very rarely is it one-sided instruction, even in CoE schools. Many many other subjects ARE mandated through the national curriculum, including science, english, mathematics, technology and a foreign language.

DS: Well, things must have changed somewhat over the past few years. It was certainly the case when I was there.

For the last two years of what is equivalent to high-schools (our A-levels in sixth form.)

DS: Actually, A-levels will take you quite a way through the college courses of most American universities.

NO subject is mandated by law, although some schools do enforce their own choice.

DS: I would like to see a ref on this.

Nor is communal worship mandated, although it isn't uncommon.

DS: I don't think that's correct, even now.

Normally, it is non-denominational and applicable to to all major faiths (although with a christian flavour just because of tradition), although I doubt is atheists are too happy, and not much provision is made for Raelians!

DireStraits · 03-10-2002, 01:43 PM

1. Are British schools subject to an accreditation process, separate from government, that certifies and re-certifies that they are preparing students adequately and according to set standards, as occurs in US schools?

DS: Well, Americans use the term "schools" to denote both elementary, middle and high schools, as well as universities. A Brit when asked where he went to school would not give the name of his university.

At secondary level school - roughly equivalent to high school - the examination standards are set by the university boards. There are several, including Oxbridge, London and a few others that slip my mind. The Scots have their own system. The government Department of Education does indeed meddle (;-)) in these matters.

2. Is it still true that the British government still constitutionally holds the Church of England to be the established church in England,

DS: Yes.

supports C. of E. financially and makes Parliament and the Monarch joint head and arbiter of the Faith?

DS: Not absolutely sure of the financial aspect, but I think so. As far as the role of parliament in being arbiter of the faith, I don't think so, but I am willing to be corrected. The Queen has a title D.E.F., the Latin abbreviation for "Defender of the Faith" which is kind of wierd, since it is a title she inherited from Henry VIII, bestowed by the then-Pope BEFORE Henry's split with Rome. I think the final arbiter of the Faoth is the Archbishop of Canterbury, but I'll take my lumps if I am wrong.

DireStraits · 03-10-2002, 01:50 PM

DS, as I mentioned above, there either is or is not a british constitution depending on how you define it. There is no single document called the 'constitution'.

DS: We agree that there is no document, but that does not make the Brit Con any more real. It is simply dispersed in precedent, tradition, laws and so forth.

There are many documents and precedents that function as a constitution in a general sense.

DS: Right. But Britain had a constitution long, long, before the American Constitution was even a twinkle in the milkman's eye. It had to have had, otherwise it would be impossible to run the country.

Even if the constitution is "I have absolute right as the monarch." THat is a constitution.

DireStraits · 03-10-2002, 01:53 PM

DS: Apologies, messed up. Should have said "LESS" real below.

DS: We agree that there is no document, but that does not make the Brit Con any more real. It is simply dispersed in precedent, tradition, laws and so forth.

engie · 03-10-2002, 02:10 PM

Hi - I'm currently in A levels (Age 17) in a north-west "christian" private school. I say christian, but it seems to be in name only... If this ever comes up the teachers get a distinctly worried expression and try to be v diplomatic (I suspect they agree they don't have a leg to stand on, those that are christian). We go to church a few times a year, and are led in prayer in assembly. I reckon atheism hits in at about 50% for teachers & students.
Anyways, we have been told a christian based assembly is required although I'm not sure if this is our school constitution or law. One point I can clarify: There is no restriction on A level choice (I'm certainly not doing RE...) Also, I know you can opt out of RE at any stage.

Engie

Pantera · 03-10-2002, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by engie:
<strong>Anyways, we have been told a christian based assembly is required although I'm not sure if this is our school constitution or law. </strong>

State schools are required by the 1944 and <a href="http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/96056-bl.htm#385" target="_blank">1996</a> Education Acts to hold a daily act of collective worship of a broadly Christian character, though parents can opt their children out if they wish. However, the law does not seem to be tightly enfrced, and in many schools (including my own State Catholic school) the custom is better honoured in the breach than in the observance.

Mendeh · 03-10-2002, 02:48 PM

A daily act of worship is supposed to be required in all primary and secondary schools (erm, that's up to age 18), although a lot of schools that simply ignore this. RE is not required by law for GCSE (14-16 years old), although some schools, particularly C of E, do require that their pupils take it. RE is required before this, however, and the course that is followed varies terrifically from school to school. My pre-GCSE RE course was basically learning about Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Sikh and Jewish beliefs, as well as justifying my own. A C of E school might focus more on Christianity, though.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-10-2002, 01:18 PM	#12
DireStraits Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 81	There is no such thing as a British Constitution. DS: You are wrong. It may not be written, but there very definitely is such a thing. I knew several people who took an A-level in the subject known as "British Constitution" or Brit Con" for short.

03-10-2002, 01:32 PM	#13
liquid Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: UK Posts: 1,440	DS, as I mentioned above, there either is or is not a british constitution depending on how you define it. There is no single document called the 'constitution'. There are many documents and precedents that function as a constitution in a general sense.

03-10-2002, 01:33 PM	#14
DireStraits Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 81	Britain has no formal 'constitution'. DS: Strange then that the definition of the type of government is "Constitutional Monarchy." Our society is based on precedent and legal agreements like the Magna Carta; we essentially evolved our structure rather than have it designed in one swoop like the USA. In fact, I am not aware of any other fully-recognised countries in the world that do not have a written constitution. DS: Neither am I. I think it's unique in having no "written" constitution. But don't be mistaken - its as binding as any constitution. DS: That's because it is a constitution. Do a search on Google for "british constitution". I got about 8000 hits. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- it has been required by law ever since there have been state-run schools in England that only one subject is absolutely mandated, and that is religious instruction, and also that every day begin with an act of communal worship. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That simply is not true. RE is not mandated in all schools at all stages of education. Where RE does take place, very rarely is it one-sided instruction, even in CoE schools. Many many other subjects ARE mandated through the national curriculum, including science, english, mathematics, technology and a foreign language. DS: Well, things must have changed somewhat over the past few years. It was certainly the case when I was there. For the last two years of what is equivalent to high-schools (our A-levels in sixth form.) DS: Actually, A-levels will take you quite a way through the college courses of most American universities. NO subject is mandated by law, although some schools do enforce their own choice. DS: I would like to see a ref on this. Nor is communal worship mandated, although it isn't uncommon. DS: I don't think that's correct, even now. Normally, it is non-denominational and applicable to to all major faiths (although with a christian flavour just because of tradition), although I doubt is atheists are too happy, and not much provision is made for Raelians!

03-10-2002, 01:43 PM	#15
DireStraits Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 81	1. Are British schools subject to an accreditation process, separate from government, that certifies and re-certifies that they are preparing students adequately and according to set standards, as occurs in US schools? DS: Well, Americans use the term "schools" to denote both elementary, middle and high schools, as well as universities. A Brit when asked where he went to school would not give the name of his university. At secondary level school - roughly equivalent to high school - the examination standards are set by the university boards. There are several, including Oxbridge, London and a few others that slip my mind. The Scots have their own system. The government Department of Education does indeed meddle (;-)) in these matters. 2. Is it still true that the British government still constitutionally holds the Church of England to be the established church in England, DS: Yes. supports C. of E. financially and makes Parliament and the Monarch joint head and arbiter of the Faith? DS: Not absolutely sure of the financial aspect, but I think so. As far as the role of parliament in being arbiter of the faith, I don't think so, but I am willing to be corrected. The Queen has a title D.E.F., the Latin abbreviation for "Defender of the Faith" which is kind of wierd, since it is a title she inherited from Henry VIII, bestowed by the then-Pope BEFORE Henry's split with Rome. I think the final arbiter of the Faoth is the Archbishop of Canterbury, but I'll take my lumps if I am wrong.

03-10-2002, 01:50 PM	#16
DireStraits Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 81	DS, as I mentioned above, there either is or is not a british constitution depending on how you define it. There is no single document called the 'constitution'. DS: We agree that there is no document, but that does not make the Brit Con any more real. It is simply dispersed in precedent, tradition, laws and so forth. There are many documents and precedents that function as a constitution in a general sense. DS: Right. But Britain had a constitution long, long, before the American Constitution was even a twinkle in the milkman's eye. It had to have had, otherwise it would be impossible to run the country. Even if the constitution is "I have absolute right as the monarch." THat is a constitution.

03-10-2002, 01:53 PM	#17
DireStraits Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 81	DS: Apologies, messed up. Should have said "LESS" real below. DS: We agree that there is no document, but that does not make the Brit Con any more real. It is simply dispersed in precedent, tradition, laws and so forth.

03-10-2002, 02:10 PM	#18
engie Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: UK Posts: 8	Hi - I'm currently in A levels (Age 17) in a north-west "christian" private school. I say christian, but it seems to be in name only... If this ever comes up the teachers get a distinctly worried expression and try to be v diplomatic (I suspect they agree they don't have a leg to stand on, those that are christian). We go to church a few times a year, and are led in prayer in assembly. I reckon atheism hits in at about 50% for teachers & students. Anyways, we have been told a christian based assembly is required although I'm not sure if this is our school constitution or law. One point I can clarify: There is no restriction on A level choice (I'm certainly not doing RE...) Also, I know you can opt out of RE at any stage. Engie

03-10-2002, 02:48 PM	#20
Mendeh Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: London, England Posts: 302	A daily act of worship is supposed to be required in all primary and secondary schools (erm, that's up to age 18), although a lot of schools that simply ignore this. RE is not required by law for GCSE (14-16 years old), although some schools, particularly C of E, do require that their pupils take it. RE is required before this, however, and the course that is followed varies terrifically from school to school. My pre-GCSE RE course was basically learning about Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Sikh and Jewish beliefs, as well as justifying my own. A C of E school might focus more on Christianity, though.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.