Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mendeh · 03-09-2002, 03:19 AM

Not entirely sure this is the right forum - I apologise if I've misposted.

Pretty depressing reading. I certainly didn't expect this in Britain. Emmanuel College is a state-funded school.

<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4371075,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4371075,00.html</a>

<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4371164,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4371164,00.html</a>

What makes it even worse is the shoddy, sensationalist and plain misleading quality of the journalism that reports it on the main article below:
<a href="http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,664608,00.html" target="_blank">http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,664608,00.html</a>
"Fundamentalist Christians have taken over Emmanuel College?" I don't think so. And one of the extracts of a lecture it talks about -

Quote:

Clearly schools are required to teach evolutionary theory. We agree that they should teach evolution as a theory and faith position. Again it is important to distinguish between evolutionary theory and the faith position of evolutionism. Clearly also schools should teach the creation theory as literally depicted in Genesis. This too is a faith position of which young people should be aware.

- is 7 years old, yet for all we'd know from reading the article, it was a recent comment. The full lecture's here:
<a href="http://www.christian.org.uk/html-publications/schoolcu.htm#Anchor--Intro-24006" target="_blank">http://www.christian.org.uk/html-publications/schoolcu.htm#Anchor--Intro-24006</a>

Strangely enough, the most recent Ofsted report for the school (Ofsted is the agency that inspects state-funded schools in Britain) says it's a really good school: (You need a .pdf reader for this)
<a href="http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/reports/108/108420.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/reports/108/108420.pdf</a>

randman · 03-09-2002, 11:48 AM

Of course, it is a good school. They are no longer cramming lies and propoganda down children's throats.

Daggah · 03-09-2002, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by randman:
Of course, it is a good school. They are no longer cramming lies and propoganda down children's throats.

No, they're just indoctrinating children on every weekday now, instead of just on Sunday. Who's cramming the lies and propaganda down children's throats again? Need I go off on a tangent to demonstrate the overabundance of dishonesty present in the creationist and even in the ID camps? <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Kevin Dorner · 03-09-2002, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Daggah:
Need I go off on a tangent to demonstrate the overabundance of dishonesty present in the creationist and even in the ID camps?

Randman demonstrates it so well with everything he says that it would be difficult to improve on, so why bother?

Mendeh · 03-09-2002, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by randman:
Of course, it is a good school. They are no longer cramming lies and propoganda down children's throats.

Having been depressed about the terrible state of Britain's education system, I am somewhat reconciled by the refreshing fact that Florida's is evidently even worse...

[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Mendeh ]

tgamble · 03-09-2002, 04:04 PM

England doesn't have seperation of church and state. That means there's not much anyone can do about teaching creationist trash in schools.

Dawkins must be chewing nails over this.

DireStraits · 03-09-2002, 05:44 PM

DS: I think it ought to be understood that the concept of the separation of church and state does not operate in the same way in Britain as it does in the US.

Firstly, the monarch, the Head of State in Britain, is also the Head of the Church of England, which is the official religion of the country. That does not mean that no other religions are allowed - clearly they are - but there IS an official state religion.

Secondly, it has been required by law ever since there have been state-run schools in England that only one subject is absolutely mandated, and that is religious instruction, and also that every day begin with an act of communal worship.

Thirdly, the state will match funds for the building and running of any school as long as it meets the above and other requirements.

I do not see anything in the situation in Gateshead or Middlesborough that violates the British Constitution.

faded_Glory · 03-10-2002, 04:45 AM

There is no such thing as a British Constitution.

fG

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: faded_Glory ]

liquid · 03-10-2002, 04:53 AM

Britain has no formal 'constitution'. Our society is based on precedent and legal agreements like the Magna Carta; we essentially evolved our structure rather than have it designed in one swoop like the USA. In fact, I am not aware of any other fully-recognised countries in the world that do not have a written constitution. But don't be mistaken - its as binding as any constitution.

Quote:

it has been required by law ever since there have been state-run schools in England that only one subject is absolutely mandated, and that is religious instruction, and also that every day begin with an act of communal worship.

That simply is not true. RE is not mandated in all schools at all stages of education. Where RE does take place, very rarely is it one-sided instruction, even in CoE schools. Many many other subjects ARE mandated through the national curriculum, including science, english, mathematics, technology and a foreign language.

For the last two years of what is equivalent to high-schools (our A-levels in sixth form.) NO subject is mandated by law, although some schools do enforce their own choice.

Nor is communal worship mandated, although it isn't uncommon. Normally, it is non-denominational and applicable to to all major faiths (although with a christian flavour just because of tradition), although I doubt is atheists are too happy, and not much provision is made for Raelians!

Ernest Sparks · 03-10-2002, 08:10 AM

I trust that students there study Physics, Chemistry and Biology as core subjects and that Evolutionism or Creationism are taught only as part of a humanities "History of Ideas" cirriculum.

I have some questions:

1. Are British schools subject to an accreditation process, separate from government, that certifies and re-certifies that they are preparing students adequately and according to set standards, as occurs in US schools?

2. Is it still true that the British government still constitutionally holds the Church of England to be the established church in England, supports C. of E. financially and makes Parliament and the Monarch joint head and arbiter of the Faith?

Ernie

03-10-2002, 04:45 AM	#8
faded_Glory Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Cairo, Egypt Posts: 1,128	There is no such thing as a British Constitution. fG [ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: faded_Glory ]</p>

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03-09-2002, 11:48 AM	#2
randman Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 333	Of course, it is a good school. They are no longer cramming lies and propoganda down children's throats.

03-09-2002, 04:04 PM	#6
tgamble Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: St. John's, Nfld. Canada Posts: 1,652	England doesn't have seperation of church and state. That means there's not much anyone can do about teaching creationist trash in schools. Dawkins must be chewing nails over this.

03-09-2002, 05:44 PM	#7
DireStraits Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 81	DS: I think it ought to be understood that the concept of the separation of church and state does not operate in the same way in Britain as it does in the US. Firstly, the monarch, the Head of State in Britain, is also the Head of the Church of England, which is the official religion of the country. That does not mean that no other religions are allowed - clearly they are - but there IS an official state religion. Secondly, it has been required by law ever since there have been state-run schools in England that only one subject is absolutely mandated, and that is religious instruction, and also that every day begin with an act of communal worship. Thirdly, the state will match funds for the building and running of any school as long as it meets the above and other requirements. I do not see anything in the situation in Gateshead or Middlesborough that violates the British Constitution.

03-10-2002, 08:10 AM	#10
Ernest Sparks Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Portland, OR USA Posts: 1,248	I trust that students there study Physics, Chemistry and Biology as core subjects and that Evolutionism or Creationism are taught only as part of a humanities "History of Ideas" cirriculum. I have some questions: 1. Are British schools subject to an accreditation process, separate from government, that certifies and re-certifies that they are preparing students adequately and according to set standards, as occurs in US schools? 2. Is it still true that the British government still constitutionally holds the Church of England to be the established church in England, supports C. of E. financially and makes Parliament and the Monarch joint head and arbiter of the Faith? Ernie

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