Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Daniel_AnglumTM · 11-15-2002, 01:24 PM

'allo I have posted here sporadicly but more often i just lurk anyways...

I have an aquantaince who has thought up what he believes to be definative proof of the existance of God, he is a raving nutcase however he believes he is an alien appointed messiah!. I think it is original it goes like this:

Everything is evolving to some sort of perfection but this cannot be reached, but if time is infinite then perfection can be reached (in a spiritual not evolutionary sense) and then once all of that has happened and everyone has joined the Metaspirit then it will be out of time so it can create the universe.

What do you people think?, i think it is original if nothing else apparently he has spent many hours labouring away in the Pizza Shop that he works in thinking of it..

Jobar · 11-15-2002, 02:32 PM

Hi moriarty- that notion is originally from an Isaac Asimov story called "The Last Question" I think, and may even be older than that. The theme is not too uncommon in science fiction- if you want to see one of the better uses of it, read the Greg Bear novels "Eon" and "Eternity". If you enjoy hard sf, you will really like those two!

DRB · 11-15-2002, 02:58 PM

That was a really bizarre notion.
How does long periods of time make it so?

My proof of God is your computer. Or any thing else you want to look at.

There are only four possible explanations as to your computer's existence or anything else.

It is an illusion

It created itself

It is self existent {eternal}{always been}

Made by someone or something

If it is an illusion than all this discussion is not taking place either. But the old saying ' I think therefore I am ' shows us that we are. And following that logic all the way out so is everything else

It can't be self created because this violates the law of non-contradiction. It can't create because it does not exist and something can't come NO THING.

This leaves only two possibilities it was made by someone or something or it is self existing

If it was made by someone or something than that must be made by someone or something and so on.
If you get all the way back to the universe then we end up in the same situation. Someone or something created it or it is self-existing. Since we observe all things wearing down and all forms of energy deteriorating,we know that these things are not self-existing.
If one argues that there is some point or place in the universe that contains all the energy or power to continue the universe then we come to the only possibility left

There is someone or something that is self existing that is creating everything. We only argue as to their address.

By definition this is your god.

Now who or what is your god?

If it is the god of the bible then you must believe he knows all and will tell the truth.
The story of creation then is true. For all of the bible hangs on the beginning and God telling the truth.

DRB

Viking · 11-15-2002, 08:05 PM

Actually, that idea is not so original. If I remember correctly, this was the central thesis of Pierre Teilhard De Chardin in his book "The Phenomenon of Man." He called it the Omega point.

Viking · 11-15-2002, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DRB:

My proof of God is your computer. Or any thing else you want to look at.

There are only four possible explanations as to your computer's existence or anything else.

It is an illusion

It created itself

It is self existent {eternal}{always been}

Made by someone or something
DRB

No. My computer is the end result of a series of natural processes, including the imagination in the brain of its designer, the brain being the end result of a series of natural processes etc. etc. The leap from that fact (I can determine empirically how my computer came to be, as well as the rocks that form the landscape) to some notion of an anthropomorphistic supernatural being is what is preposterous.

Family Man · 11-16-2002, 08:19 AM

One obvious problem is the premise that "everything is evolving towards perfection." Is that true?

LordSnooty · 11-16-2002, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Family Man:
One obvious problem is the premise that "everything is evolving towards perfection." Is that true?

Since lifeforms themselves have no predetermined purpose, perfection is impossible. Who defines perfection?

Paul

11-16-2002, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LordSnooty:


Since lifeforms themselves have no predetermined purpose, perfection is impossible. Who defines perfection?

Paul

Good point in that lifeforms have no purpose. Perfection is our ability to identify with what is and come to the realization that things are the way they are to maintan perfect harmony. If something seems not perpect it is our assumption that is not perfect. It may just be the case that we prejudge the restoration of natural balances, such as in floods or acts of terror.

Daniel_AnglumTM · 11-17-2002, 04:20 AM

It wasnt really evolution that he spoke of it was some sort of metha-spirit that we are all heading towards, that i cannot refute because the voices told him so!

Fiach · 11-17-2002, 02:34 PM

My computer is the result of purely natural processes. It was made by a natural, bipedal, bimanual primate with a large brain. That primate evolved over several million years from a primate ancestor of apes and man. That ancestral primate evolved from prosimians, and a probable tree dwelling insectivore, who evolved from a burrowing ground dwelling rodent like mammal of the Mesozoic. That primitive mammal evolved by purely natural processes of nucleotide mutations and adaptations from mammal-like reptiles of the Permian and Triassic. And the series goes back to amphibians, lung or lobe fin fishes, to chordates, to a series of creatures whose names evade me now to the Cambrian. In the Precambrian molecules formed from water, in a rich atmosphere of Methane, Ammonia, and Carbon Dioxide. These molecules recombined until some of them had the property of replication.

At a certain point the nucleotides made a lipoprotein perhaps initially as a repellant or waste product but one form stuck in layers forming a cell membrane. Tiny little germs invaded the akaryotic cells to form mitochondria and Golgi, nucleotides grouped into a protective nucleus.

And where did the atoms of Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, calcium, sodium, and potassium come from? They were in a condensing cloud that formed our solar system with one planet the right distance from the sun for life. The atoms of the cloud had been around for billions of years since being formed in giant proto-stars that went supernova 100 million years after the big bang. Prior to that there was just hydrogen and helium that eventually clung together and by gravity formed those stars whose nuclear furnaces made the heavier elements of which we and our computers are composed.

No, we don't know the exact mechanism of the Big Bang but we know in general terms much of what followed. Theists feel an emotional need to attribute any and all mysteries to God or gods. Atheist are honest and admit "I don't know" how the Big Bang occurred.

From the Big Bang to mankind we have rational hypotheses and theories of how we became us. The computer is easy, because it was a byproduct of human evolution. We made it. We were made by natural processes in billions of steps over billions of years.

DRB Quotes:

"If it is the god of the bible then you must believe he knows all and will tell the truth."

If I believed in the God of the Bible, I am not convinced that he knows all. In his Jesus form, he didn't know that bacteria cause Leprosy, that neuronal spikes of depolarisation cause epilepsy not daemons. In his Jesus form, he was taken to a mountain by Satan and shown all the nations of the Earth, duh? He didn't know Earth was a sphere. He thought he would return before those in his audience had passed away. HE WAS WRONG. The Gullible are still waiting.

If God wrote the Bible by proxy, then we must assume that he thought he created the Earth by magic a mere 60 centuries ago. But all we need to disprove that is in my attic. Rocks and fossils over 6000 years old. Some are actually 240 million, 2 billion, and 500 million (from Grampian Mountain layers).

The morality of the Christian God is another huge topic that needs a different thread, but is a major reason for refuting this weird and crazy god. He is also very bad.

"The story of creation then is true. For all of the bible hangs on the beginning and God telling the truth." - DRB

In other words, if you discredit the Biblical Creation Myth, you loose Original Sin, the Fall of Man, the necessity of human sacrifice (god-human to be most valuable), and eternal life. For you to maintain your delusion of immortality, you must accept everything in the Biblical myths or it all collapses. For that reason, no matter how barmy it sounds, if it is Biblical it is true for you.

Fiach

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Fiach ]

11-15-2002, 01:24 PM	#1
Daniel_AnglumTM Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere in the Suburban Jungle of London Posts: 34	Yet another proof 'allo I have posted here sporadicly but more often i just lurk anyways... I have an aquantaince who has thought up what he believes to be definative proof of the existance of God, he is a raving nutcase however he believes he is an alien appointed messiah!. I think it is original it goes like this: Everything is evolving to some sort of perfection but this cannot be reached, but if time is infinite then perfection can be reached (in a spiritual not evolutionary sense) and then once all of that has happened and everyone has joined the Metaspirit then it will be out of time so it can create the universe. What do you people think?, i think it is original if nothing else apparently he has spent many hours labouring away in the Pizza Shop that he works in thinking of it..

11-17-2002, 02:34 PM	#10
Fiach Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 602	My computer is the result of purely natural processes. It was made by a natural, bipedal, bimanual primate with a large brain. That primate evolved over several million years from a primate ancestor of apes and man. That ancestral primate evolved from prosimians, and a probable tree dwelling insectivore, who evolved from a burrowing ground dwelling rodent like mammal of the Mesozoic. That primitive mammal evolved by purely natural processes of nucleotide mutations and adaptations from mammal-like reptiles of the Permian and Triassic. And the series goes back to amphibians, lung or lobe fin fishes, to chordates, to a series of creatures whose names evade me now to the Cambrian. In the Precambrian molecules formed from water, in a rich atmosphere of Methane, Ammonia, and Carbon Dioxide. These molecules recombined until some of them had the property of replication. At a certain point the nucleotides made a lipoprotein perhaps initially as a repellant or waste product but one form stuck in layers forming a cell membrane. Tiny little germs invaded the akaryotic cells to form mitochondria and Golgi, nucleotides grouped into a protective nucleus. And where did the atoms of Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, calcium, sodium, and potassium come from? They were in a condensing cloud that formed our solar system with one planet the right distance from the sun for life. The atoms of the cloud had been around for billions of years since being formed in giant proto-stars that went supernova 100 million years after the big bang. Prior to that there was just hydrogen and helium that eventually clung together and by gravity formed those stars whose nuclear furnaces made the heavier elements of which we and our computers are composed. No, we don't know the exact mechanism of the Big Bang but we know in general terms much of what followed. Theists feel an emotional need to attribute any and all mysteries to God or gods. Atheist are honest and admit "I don't know" how the Big Bang occurred. From the Big Bang to mankind we have rational hypotheses and theories of how we became us. The computer is easy, because it was a byproduct of human evolution. We made it. We were made by natural processes in billions of steps over billions of years. DRB Quotes: "If it is the god of the bible then you must believe he knows all and will tell the truth." If I believed in the God of the Bible, I am not convinced that he knows all. In his Jesus form, he didn't know that bacteria cause Leprosy, that neuronal spikes of depolarisation cause epilepsy not daemons. In his Jesus form, he was taken to a mountain by Satan and shown all the nations of the Earth, duh? He didn't know Earth was a sphere. He thought he would return before those in his audience had passed away. HE WAS WRONG. The Gullible are still waiting. If God wrote the Bible by proxy, then we must assume that he thought he created the Earth by magic a mere 60 centuries ago. But all we need to disprove that is in my attic. Rocks and fossils over 6000 years old. Some are actually 240 million, 2 billion, and 500 million (from Grampian Mountain layers). The morality of the Christian God is another huge topic that needs a different thread, but is a major reason for refuting this weird and crazy god. He is also very bad. "The story of creation then is true. For all of the bible hangs on the beginning and God telling the truth." - DRB In other words, if you discredit the Biblical Creation Myth, you loose Original Sin, the Fall of Man, the necessity of human sacrifice (god-human to be most valuable), and eternal life. For you to maintain your delusion of immortality, you must accept everything in the Biblical myths or it all collapses. For that reason, no matter how barmy it sounds, if it is Biblical it is true for you. Fiach [ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Fiach ]</p>

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11-15-2002, 02:32 PM	#2
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Hi moriarty- that notion is originally from an Isaac Asimov story called "The Last Question" I think, and may even be older than that. The theme is not too uncommon in science fiction- if you want to see one of the better uses of it, read the Greg Bear novels "Eon" and "Eternity". If you enjoy hard sf, you will really like those two!

11-15-2002, 02:58 PM	#3
DRB New Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: virginia Posts: 2	That was a really bizarre notion. How does long periods of time make it so? My proof of God is your computer. Or any thing else you want to look at. There are only four possible explanations as to your computer's existence or anything else. It is an illusion It created itself It is self existent {eternal}{always been} Made by someone or something If it is an illusion than all this discussion is not taking place either. But the old saying ' I think therefore I am ' shows us that we are. And following that logic all the way out so is everything else It can't be self created because this violates the law of non-contradiction. It can't create because it does not exist and something can't come NO THING. This leaves only two possibilities it was made by someone or something or it is self existing If it was made by someone or something than that must be made by someone or something and so on. If you get all the way back to the universe then we end up in the same situation. Someone or something created it or it is self-existing. Since we observe all things wearing down and all forms of energy deteriorating,we know that these things are not self-existing. If one argues that there is some point or place in the universe that contains all the energy or power to continue the universe then we come to the only possibility left There is someone or something that is self existing that is creating everything. We only argue as to their address. By definition this is your god. Now who or what is your god? If it is the god of the bible then you must believe he knows all and will tell the truth. The story of creation then is true. For all of the bible hangs on the beginning and God telling the truth. DRB

11-15-2002, 08:05 PM	#4
Viking Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Duluth, MN Posts: 151	Actually, that idea is not so original. If I remember correctly, this was the central thesis of Pierre Teilhard De Chardin in his book "The Phenomenon of Man." He called it the Omega point.

11-16-2002, 08:19 AM	#6
Family Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Superior, CO USA Posts: 1,553	One obvious problem is the premise that "everything is evolving towards perfection." Is that true?

11-17-2002, 04:20 AM	#9
Daniel_AnglumTM Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere in the Suburban Jungle of London Posts: 34	It wasnt really evolution that he spoke of it was some sort of metha-spirit that we are all heading towards, that i cannot refute because the voices told him so!

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