Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RJS · 09-13-2002, 11:24 AM

Quote:

No problemo, your posts have not offended me, just the inital "faceless coward" remark. Thanks for the apology tho.

I can actually fully understand how my OP did not convey much sympathy for the widow, probably because that was not the topic I was addressing. In fact, earlier on in the very same MSNBC article that contained the quote that "set me off" so to speak, Mrs. Beamer related how she would often cry into one of her husband's shirts because she could still smell him. This imagery actually brought tears to my eyes. I can't even imagine the pain of losing a husband, especially with two children and one on the way... and my heart goes out to her for that loss.

Thank you for the forgiveness for the Faceless Coward comment. And thank you for the additional color on you feelings - that was a highlight of the thread (for me). I feel (hope) I would have apologized sooner had you communicated this earlier, but your second post (with the wealthy ... comments) pushed me further into my trench.

I guess it comes down to this - and I think about this often as a relatively new but very strong believer, if there is only one Truth and you think (know) you found it, how do you know you aren't like all of the others who are brainwashed by false religions? (this is not a question I am asking for your opinion on

)

When you have "found" the Truth, it becomes very clear (like really really painfully clear) that the other religions are a bunch of total silliness - i.e. Mormonism, Islam, etc....but wait, they say they know the Truth and think my Truth is silliness....and they proactively die for their Truth...wow, thats conviction...or is that just evidence they are brainwashed...

This is hard to reconcile...and I think about it often. I am nowhere near a point saying I'm changing anything. In fact, my faith continues to strenghten. And at the end of the day, even if I happen to be brainwashed, I know I am a much better person than before I believed, and I am pleased that the brainwashing took place by the God of Love and portrayed in the life of Christ, than any of the others.

So I own a gun, but it will only be used for hunting, regardless of what God told the Israelites to do.

christ-on-a-stick · 09-13-2002, 11:54 AM

Quote:

When you have "found" the Truth, it becomes very clear (like really really painfully clear) that the other religions are a bunch of total silliness - i.e. Mormonism, Islam, etc....but wait, they say they know the Truth and think my Truth is silliness....and they proactively die for their Truth...wow, thats conviction...or is that just evidence they are brainwashed...

This is hard to reconcile...and I think about it often. I am nowhere near a point saying I'm changing anything. In fact, my faith continues to strenghten. And at the end of the day, even if I happen to be brainwashed, I know I am a much better person than before I believed, and I am pleased that the brainwashing took place by the God of Love and portrayed in the life of Christ, than any of the others.

I remember very, very well that "painfully painfully clear" feeling you speak of it... 110% conviction and certainty... as I know many other former believers on this board do as well. And I also struggled with the same questions you are trying to reconcile...only to find over a course of years that it couldn't be reconciled in an intellectually honest way. I don't know if your beliefs will ever change through examining them honestly and critically; maybe they will and maybe they won't, but I am glad to hear that at least you are willing to see that the question of "who has Truth and who is brainwashed" is not that cut and dried

This quote for your consideration:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ~ Stephen Roberts

HelenM · 09-13-2002, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkBronzePlant:
<strong>For the record, Lisa What's-her-name (the Verizon operator, not the widow) was on Larry King the other night; she claimed that Todd Beamer told her that they planned to take back the plane in order to land it safely. He seemed pretty sure they would be able to do so.

So, though even I get a rah-rah-fight-fight-fight kind of feeling when I think of the passenger uprising on Flight 93, it seems clear that they weren't acting primarily to save others' lives, and also that they didn't actually prevent any additional tragedy (as there were fighters dispatched at that point, and they already had permission to shoot Flight 93 down.)</strong>

Ok, fair enough. I didn't know that Lisa-the-operator had commented specifically on this. Thanks for telling me!

Helen

PopeInTheWoods · 09-16-2002, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick:
<strong>...in her new book (this is from an MSNBC article):

�You think you deserve a happy life and get angry when it doesn�t always happen like that,� she wrote in �Let�s Roll!,� her just-published memoir (first printing: 1 million copies). �In fact, you are a sinner and deserve only death. The fact that God has offered you hope of eternal life is amazing! You should be overwhelmed with joy and gratitude.�</strong>

Coming in very late to the thread with an observation made by another poster on the snopes.com message boards:

Lisa Beamer is a graduate of the Courtney Love School of Widowhood.

Andy

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