Freethought & Rationalism Archive

05-29-2002, 07:50 PM

I have always been rather curious about the world's religions, but for one reason or another I never really studied Catholicism. So recently I decided to do a little reading on the subject. I already knew a little about Mass, communion, and Saints, but I was shocked to discover that Catholics believe that their god tortures and burns Catholics after death in a horrible place called purgatory until they are "pure" enough to enter heaven. I had heard of purgatory in the past, but I always thought it was supposed to be a dreary, dark place sort of like a prison cell. I never imagined that it was a torture chamber. Here's a brief description of what Catholics believe about souls in purgatory (from a<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Park/3512/ReadMe.html" target="_blank"> Catholic apologetics page</a>):

Quote:

So grievous is their suffering that one minute in this awful fire seems
like a century.

St. Thomas Aquinas, the Prince of Theologians, says that the fire of
Purgatory is equal in intensity to the fire of Hell, and that the slightest contact with it is more dreadful than all the possible sufferings of this earth.

St. Augustine, the greatest of the Holy Doctors, teaches that to be
purified of their faults previous to being admitted to Heaven, souls after death are subjected to a fire more penetrating, more dreadful than anything we can see, or feel, or conceive in this life.

"Though this fire is destined to cleanse and purify the soul,' adds the
Holy Doctor, 'still it is more acute than anything we could possibly endure on Earth."

Keep in mind that this kind of torture and punishment is reserved for believers, even devout nuns and priests! And according to church doctrine, the only effective way to get souls out of purgatory is to pray for them.

How can any sane person believe this kind of garbage? How can anyone worship and love a god that tortures his own children?

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]

Bree · 05-30-2002, 09:16 AM

I'm curious as to where this idea of "purgatory" came from. Do the Catholics have an expanded version of the Bible or something? I don't remember anything about purgatory in the regular Bible.

I was always under the impression that the idea of purgatory came from Dante's Inferno, but maybe I'm all washed up.

Marduk · 05-30-2002, 03:33 PM

They can always make it go away, they once had a place called 'limbo' to stack unbaptized babies, no torture here just, well limbo I guess, nothingness. But some Vatican council or another dumped it, don't no what happened to the babies. There are a few verses that sort of suggest this purgatory but are very vague, burning wood to get this or that, purification blah blah, essentially they made it up. To raise money back in the middle ages you could get dead relatives out of there by making a nice 'contribution' to the 'holy' church. One of the reasons Luther bolted.

Veil of Fire · 05-30-2002, 04:13 PM

"I'm curious as to where this idea of "purgatory" came from. Do the Catholics have an expanded version of the Bible or something?"

Actually, yes. The Catholic Bible has 7 (8?) more books than the Protestant Bible; these are commonly known as the Apocrypha (IIRC). These include Paul's Gospel, and some more of his letters, among other scripture. Martin Luther decided it he didn't like them, and threw them out in direct violation of scriptual law. Which is why, to this day, I fail to understand how Protestants can even exist.

Straight Hate · 05-30-2002, 05:11 PM

I always wondered why Christians were so afraid of dying.

Bree · 05-30-2002, 10:54 PM

Ah yes, the Apocrypha. Brings up an interesting question: if the Protestants and the Catholics both have the same collective section of books that were left out of the Bible, then why can't we call them by the same name? I was always under the impression that one group called it the Apocrypha and the other group the Septuagint.

Marduk · 05-31-2002, 02:36 AM

"one group called it the Apocrypha and the other group
the Septuagint. "

The Septuagint is the Greek version of the OT written uinder Ptolmey in Alexandria Egypt, no connection to the NT. The Apocrypha are books not 'officially' in the Bible, both old and New Testaments, not limited to the few that the Catholics consider cannon.

chiron64 · 06-01-2002, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree:
I'm curious as to where this idea of "purgatory" came from. Do the Catholics have an expanded version of the Bible or something? I don't remember anything about purgatory in the regular Bible.

I was always under the impression that the idea of purgatory came from Dante's Inferno, but maybe I'm all washed up.

If I recall my Catholic catechism correctly, purgatory is a logical outcome of the idea that god is both just and merciful. Purgatory is where souls go whose sins are not grievous enough to go to hell, but who are still not "pure" enough to enter heaven because they committed venial sins that were not "paid for" during life.

excreationist · 06-02-2002, 01:16 AM

<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/purgatory.htm" target="_blank">ReligiousTolerance.org - Purgatory</a>

This has heaps of information on the subject. (from one of my favourite sites)

Quote:

Bible passages which appear to support Purgatory:
There is no direct, unambiguous reference in the Bible to either the existence or the nature of Purgatory. Its existence has been inferred from a number of passages in the Bible:

- 2 Maccabees 12:39-45: This passage is taken from the Apocrypha which is recognized by the Roman Catholic Church and a few Protestant denominations as part of the official canon of scripture. It talks about living persons praying for the dead. One could reason that there is no need to pray for the deceased if they are in Heaven; they have already received their reward. If the deceased is in Hell, then prayer would again be meaningless because they would be beyond help. One might surmise that there must be an intermediate state or location where a person's soul could be helped by the prayer of others.
- 1 Corinthians 3:15 discusses how each individual's good and bad works will be judged after death. This is probably the main text used by Catholics to support their belief in Purgatory. The passage refers to fire which will test the quality of each man's work. If it is burned up...he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. This passage could be interpreted as a reference to the purifying fires of Purgatory, which would eventually allow a person to escape. This reference cannot refer to Hell, because one cannot leave that place; it cannot refer to Heaven because there is no pain there; it must refer to some intermediate location. The key word in the original Greek is "zemiothesetai" which is translated as "suffer loss" in many versions of the Bible. But the original word also can refer to punishment; this alternative meaning is suppressed in most translations.
- Revelation 21:27 states that no impure person will enter heaven. "But nothing unclean shall enter it..." If a person dies with some minor sins still on their record, then they are obviously not pure. Logic would seem to indicate that they must go to some place to be refined until they can attain heaven.
- Other passages include: Psalm 141:8; Daniel 12:10; Micah 7:9; Zechariah 9:11; Matthew 5:26; Matthew 12:32 & 36; Luke 12:47-48; Philippians 2:10; Hebrews 12:22b; James 3:1; 1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:18; 1 Peter 7:37; and Jude 23. 10
- Passages which discuss "penitent mourning or concern for safe passage of the dead" are: Genesis 50:10; Numbers 20:29; Deuteronomy 34:8; 2 Maccabees 12:44-45; 1 Corinthians 15:29; 2 Timothy 1:16-18; 2 Timothy 4:19. These have been used to imply the existence of Purgatory.10

Bible passages which appear to oppose Purgatory:
Many conservative Protestants believe that various biblical passages on salvation indicate that a person would go to either heaven (if they were saved) or to Hell (if they were not) after death. Purgatory would thus have no function. Some of those passages are:
- Romans 5:18: "...by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
- Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Paul believed that the unsaved would simply be annihilated and exist no more in any form; the saved would attain eternal life in heaven).
- Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

However, it can be argued that these passages do not preclude the existence of Prugatory. Perhaps Heaven, the free gift from God, is not experienced immediately at death. There remains the possibility that the gift of heaven will be delayed until after a person is purified in Purgatory.

Others claim that Purgatory does not exist since the saved will avoid the wrath and condemnation of God:
- Romans 5:9 states that: "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."
- John 5:24: "...He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Again, it could be argued that this verse does not preclude Purgatory. One could believe that the punishment in Purgatory comes from the loving chastisement of God, not from his wrath or condemnation. Thus, believers would have to experience Purgatory.

Many of passages do seem to indicate that a saved person has already been totally forgiven his/her sins. 1 John is particularly clear on this point. Purgatory would thus not be needed, because the believers have already had their sins wiped clean. A few of these passages are:
- Romans 3:24: "...Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"
- Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..."
- 1 Corinthians 6:11: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus..."
- Titus 2:14: "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify onto himself a peculiar people..."
- Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
- 1 John 1:7: "...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
- 1 John 1:7: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness."
- 1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Bree · 06-02-2002, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree:

I was always under the impression that one group called it the Apocrypha and the other group the Septuagint.

Sorry, my mistake. Isn't it the "pseudopigrapha" or something? I don't know how to spell it - just how to say it.

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05-30-2002, 09:16 AM	#2
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	I'm curious as to where this idea of "purgatory" came from. Do the Catholics have an expanded version of the Bible or something? I don't remember anything about purgatory in the regular Bible. I was always under the impression that the idea of purgatory came from Dante's Inferno, but maybe I'm all washed up.

05-30-2002, 03:33 PM	#3
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	They can always make it go away, they once had a place called 'limbo' to stack unbaptized babies, no torture here just, well limbo I guess, nothingness. But some Vatican council or another dumped it, don't no what happened to the babies. There are a few verses that sort of suggest this purgatory but are very vague, burning wood to get this or that, purification blah blah, essentially they made it up. To raise money back in the middle ages you could get dead relatives out of there by making a nice 'contribution' to the 'holy' church. One of the reasons Luther bolted.

05-30-2002, 04:13 PM	#4
Veil of Fire Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 451	"I'm curious as to where this idea of "purgatory" came from. Do the Catholics have an expanded version of the Bible or something?" Actually, yes. The Catholic Bible has 7 (8?) more books than the Protestant Bible; these are commonly known as the Apocrypha (IIRC). These include Paul's Gospel, and some more of his letters, among other scripture. Martin Luther decided it he didn't like them, and threw them out in direct violation of scriptual law. Which is why, to this day, I fail to understand how Protestants can even exist.

05-30-2002, 05:11 PM	#5
Straight Hate Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 4,171	I always wondered why Christians were so afraid of dying.

05-30-2002, 10:54 PM	#6
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Ah yes, the Apocrypha. Brings up an interesting question: if the Protestants and the Catholics both have the same collective section of books that were left out of the Bible, then why can't we call them by the same name? I was always under the impression that one group called it the Apocrypha and the other group the Septuagint.

05-31-2002, 02:36 AM	#7
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"one group called it the Apocrypha and the other group the Septuagint. " The Septuagint is the Greek version of the OT written uinder Ptolmey in Alexandria Egypt, no connection to the NT. The Apocrypha are books not 'officially' in the Bible, both old and New Testaments, not limited to the few that the Catholics consider cannon.

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