Stephen T-B

I wonder if the Christians visiting Infidels have ever thought about this:

How can a soul enjoy paradise if those whom it had loved when it possessed a physical body are headed for hell?

I’ll explain.

My parents were very religious; my father was a charismatic preacher and healer who brought many to the Lord; he was supported by my mother, a compassionate woman who was devoted to Jesus.
One might suppose that if anyone qualified for Eternal Bliss, it was they; indeed, they both died in the certainty that that was their destiny, and that they would be re-united in Heaven.
If anything blighted their sense of ease it was my unbelief, and I can say this because I know that I was considered by them to be rather special, thanks to the circumstances of my birth.
It will help you to know that my parents only had full sex when they believed god intended them to have a child, so procreation wasn’t a haphazard thing. On top of that, in the early days of my mother’s pregnancy, her doctor diagnosed it as ectopic which, as you can imagine, caused considerable alarm,
All my parents’ friends - and they had a great many - were asked to pray for her, and my father (or someone) laid hands on her.
Well, we now know that everything came out all right. I put it down to an erroneous diagnosis; they put it to down to a miraculous intervention, and consequently had high expectations of me, which I dashed after the age of about 20 when god floated out of my life.

If it be the case that both my parents are now in heaven, how heavenly can it be if they know the son whom god delivered to them is destined for hell - and they can’t do a thing about it?
Must we assume that they are in such a changed state that they either don’t know what’s going on down here - or don’t care?

Is this what "being in heaven" means?

And I wonder how much worth can be attached to the notion of "being re-united in heaven" with one’s loved ones if those loved ones no longer matter?

Darth Dane

"How can a soul enjoy paradise if those whom it had loved when it possessed a physical body are headed for hell?"

Because you have freewill to decide for yourself if you believe in God/paradise.
Oh and also read "job: A comedy of justice" by Robert Heinlein.
To the main characther heaven is where his love is.
Quite a good book, that may arose funny thoughts in your mind.


"If it be the case that both my parents are now in heaven, how heavenly can it be if they know the son whom god delivered to them is destined for hell - and they can’t do a thing about it?
Must we assume that they are in such a changed state that they either don’t know what’s going on down here - or don’t care?"

No, don't assume anything, thats my advice.
Do you care now? You'll probably care then.
I dunno.
I know We'll all be forgiven if you earnestly ask for it....or that is...I believe it to be true.

"And I wonder how much worth can be attached to the notion of "being re-united in heaven" with one’s loved ones if those loved ones no longer matter?"

Why shouldn't they matter?
Maybe this explains reincarnation! They come back and reunite in heaven.... ...that is if this is heaven :O




DD - Heavenly Spliff

Christian

Stephen,

That's a fair question. I'm afraid I don't have a definitive answer for you. All we are told about heaven (and hell) are basically hints. The reality will probably hold a few suprises. Some thoughts from my perspective:

- God loves every person, even those who will end up on the wrong side of judgment day, more deeply than any human is capable of loving (Lk 15). Noone will be able to sympathize more completely over a lost son then He whose own Son died because of sin. He'll not only wipe away every tear (Rev 21:4), He'll be wiping away His own tears (Lk 13:34).

- It is entirely possible that heaven would be hell for people who have not been born again. One of the things we know for certain about heaven is that it means eternal fellowship with God (Rev 22:1-5). For those who have no taste for God, so to speak, being forever in His presence would be torment. C.S. Lewis speculates that those who choose separation from God in this life continue to willingly choose separation from God in the eternal state. This line of thought is speculation to a large extent, but it wouldn't suprise me at all if something similar turns out to be the case.

- I don't think that we'll stop caring about other people, especially those we knew and loved. That would be a distinctly unChristian attitude, IMHO. The parable of Lazarus (Lk 16:19-31) suggests that we will have some idea of what is going on down here and we will care in the afterlife.

- I agree that the reality of a hell such as Jesus described (Mk 9:43-48) is a harsh truth for anyone to accept. It seems to soften the harshness a little bit to know that there will be different degrees of suffering based on specific sins (Lk 12:47-48), but only a little bit. The thought of anyone actually getting what they deserve makes me shudder.

Respectfully,

Christian

Stephen T-B

I asked: “ How can a soul enjoy paradise if those whom it had loved when it possessed a physical body are headed for hell?"
Darth Dane replied: “Because you have freewill to decide for yourself if you believe in God/paradise.”
I don’t see how that answers the question. (I don't even think it's true.)

He wrote: “Don't assume anything, that’s my advice.”
But hey, if you’re a Christian and don’t assume you’re going to heaven, what’s the point of being a Christian?

He wrote: “I know We'll all be forgiven if you earnestly ask for it....” Yes, but if I die tomorrow, suddenly, I’ll never have asked, earnestly or not so-earnestly, to be forgiven.

He wondered why I thought a soul’s loved one’s no longer mattered to it when it was in heaven. Well, I don’t see how they can matter to it if, when in heaven, it doesn’t care if they go to heaven or hell.

Christian, thank you for your honesty (“I'm afraid I don't have a definitive answer for you.”)
You wrote: “He'll not only wipe away every tear (Rev 21:4), He'll be wiping away His own tears (Lk 13:34).”
So there’s a deal of weeping goes on in heaven?

I like the last part of your post, which I take as meaning that my parents aren’t necessarily saddened by the possibility of my not getting to heaven (on the grounds that they know it would be hellish for me if I did.)
Weird, eh? Seems I’m going to be happier - as an unbeliever - being in hell than I’d be if I were in heaven. So the penalty of not believing is be deprived of god’s love? Thing is, I’m deprived of it now, and certainly don’t go around thinking “Gosh, something’s really wrong here; I must be missing something very wonderful.”
I know Christians who are a lot more troubled than I am.
Question: What’s the point of being a Christian if the reward is one which only a Christian can appreciate?

Changing tack somewhat, you wrote: “It seems to soften the harshness (of hell) a little bit to know that there will be different degrees of suffering based on specific sins (Lk 12:47-48), but only a little bit. The thought of anyone actually getting what they deserve makes me shudder.”
I don’t see why it should make you shudder, if they really are getting what they deserve.
Since I don’t believe in god or heaven or hell, for me this is all entirely hypothetical - but none the less interesting to discuss. For you, however, it is not hypothetical, and I do wonder how, as a believer, you manage to reconcile your belief in a loving and merciful god (this is a favourite topic here at Infidels) with the notion that he assigns souls to punishments which make you shudder.
Did I ask not to believe in god?
Don’t think so. I wanted very much to believe in god, but god didn’t make himself real to me - at least, not to an extent which I was able to recognise (and presumably he equipped me with the spiritual qualities with which I came into this world, so why does he punish me for being deficient in them?)
For many years I accepted there was a god on the basis that that was what I was told. But when I required a personal experience of god, nothing happened. And what I find hard to understand is how you are able to believe that this “failure” on my part warrants eternal punishment?
If Jesus wanted me for a sun beam, there I was, waiting to be turned into one. He didn’t, and the whole god thing just melted into mythology.

Amos

The notion that we must physically die before we get to heaven is a protestant idea. You father may have found that this is true only seconds before he died because it is impossible to take your ego with you when you die. It is at this time that the 'souls he saved' become liabilities as in the "filthy rag" parable.

In Catholicism it is held that we must die to our human identity while on earth any many different examples are given of this, eg. the song of St. Francis. This process is called purgatory and if purgatory can begin while we are alive on earth it must be conceivable that it ends while we are alive on earth, and if it ends while we are alive on earth heaven must begin while we are alive on earth. If, then, heaven can begin while we are alive on earth one must wonder if it can still begin after we are dead. For sure, it would contradict "I am the God of the living and not of the dead."

Stephen T-B

"Filthy rag" parable?
Don’t know it.
As usual, Amos, you’ve totally confused me.
Are you saying that those who are in heaven aren’t dead?
If I step on an ant and it gets spread over the floor, is its state of being dead different from that of a human who gets spread around by a car? Being in heaven, is this person not really dead at all.
I think we need a definition of death.

Amos

We have a first and second death because we are divided in our own mind between our ego identity and our true identity. In our true identity we are the animal man and in our ego identity we are the rational animal man. The first death deals with our ego and the second death deals with our true animal man identity. So in effect, all we have to do is nail our ego to the cross and walk away from it like a free man. We can also just let it rapture away because it is just an illusion to begin with (except here we must know how to do that).

Yes, when you get run over by a car and don't survive to talk about it your life will be over. If your ego dies or raptures while you are on the way to your Damascus that which remains will be in heaven.

Christian

Stephen,

You said: So there’s a deal of weeping goes on in heaven?

To the best of my understanding, yes. Life without any sadness at all sounds pretty boring to me.

You said: So the penalty of not believing is be deprived of god’s love?

Yes.

You said: Thing is, I’m deprived of it now, and certainly don’t go around thinking “Gosh, something’s really wrong here; I must be missing something very wonderful.” I know Christians who are a lot more troubled than I am.

You're not completely shut off from God's love right now. Merely heading in that direction. There is a difference.

Trouble in this life is one of the things Jesus promised for those who follow Him. There are some things in the universe, though, that are worth a little bit of trouble. Or even a lot.

You said: Question: What’s the point of being a Christian if the reward is one which only a Christian can appreciate?

I'm not sure I understand your question. If you become a Christian, then you'll be able to appreciate the benefit. If you don't become a Christian, then you are still missing out on it. I assert that there is purpose and fullfillment beyond anything that you are I are even capable of comprehending in store for the Christian (although I have been given a much greater taste of it than you.) What's the point in going after something that even better than you can imagine??? In a real sense, that is the point.

You are also implying that the point of Christianity is chasing after some personal benefit. For me, in any case, the point of Christianity is that it is true. I'm interested in the real deal, in actual fact, whether it benefits me or not. I'd rather be left out in the cold than deceived. I freely admit that what I believe to be true is much to my benefit. Although there are many troubles and much that is difficult along that path.

You said: I don’t see why it should make you shudder, if they really are getting what they deserve.

Pain and suffering, no matter how justified, are always an occasion for sorrow. Even God thinks so. (Eze 18:23,32)

You said: Since I don’t believe in god or heaven or hell, for me this is all entirely hypothetical - but none the less interesting to discuss. For you, however, it is not hypothetical, and I do wonder how, as a believer, you manage to reconcile your belief in a loving and merciful god (this is a favourite topic here at Infidels) with the notion that he assigns souls to punishments which make you shudder.

The cross is a useful example of how unrelenting justice and abundant love and mercy are reconciled to each other. God was not willing to just waive away the requirements of justice, He couldn't have gone to any greater extent to make that clear. But He also was not willing that all should perish, He could not have gone to any greater extent to make that clear. The single act of Jesus dying on the cross was perfect justice and perfect love and mercy at the same time. It's a useful point of reference to understanding how those qualities can both exist at the same time in God.

You said: Did I ask not to believe in god?
Don’t think so. I wanted very much to believe in god, but god didn’t make himself real to me - at least, not to an extent which I was able to recognise (and presumably he equipped me with the spiritual qualities with which I came into this world, so why does he punish me for being deficient in them?)
For many years I accepted there was a god on the basis that that was what I was told. But when I required a personal experience of god, nothing happened. And what I find hard to understand is how you are able to believe that this “failure” on my part warrants eternal punishment?
If Jesus wanted me for a sun beam, there I was, waiting to be turned into one. He didn’t, and the whole god thing just melted into mythology

You and I deserve eternal punishment completely aside from whether or not we believe in (and trust) Christ for our salvation. We've both screwed enough things up that an omniscient Being who is unwaiveringly just could nail us, dead to rights. (I don't mean this as an insult ... it's the condition of all men.) The sin of unbelief is pivotal ... commit that one and you get nailed for all the others. But the others exist and must be acknowledged when considering the question of eternal punishment.

Question: What would it have taken for God to have made Himself real to you? What would have qualified as a personal experience of God? I'm curious what exactly you were looking for that you didn't find.

For what it's worth I respect your intellectual integrity. I find insincere Christians much more distasteful than sincere athiests. I was also raised in a Christian home, and at the point in my life where I questioned everything and tested what was real ... I very much found the answers and experienced the real God in a personal way. If I had not found God then, I might very well be in your shoes today. I'm intriqued by the way our spiritual journeys diverged.

Respectfully,

Christian

The Naked Mage

Could we get some orderlies in here, please? <prepares strait jacket>

Stephen T-B

Amos, I cherish your posts because they’re like something that might be said by a character in a very mysterious and incomprehensible Chinese film which makes me think: “I suppose there’s sense in that. I just don’t know what it is.”
I wonder, are you talking about death of self? Don’t the Buddhist’s teach something along those lines? That we need to detach all earthly and physical desires from ourselves in order to acquire spiritual advancement?
Your Catholicism seems a bit unorthodox to me and makes me think that under the Inquisition you’d have been in serious trouble.

Christian - thank you for your reply.
I think the concept of “unrelenting justice and abundant love” is odd, as though the unrelenting justice bit is some natural phenomenon, like gravity, the effects of which god ameliorates as best he can. But we both know that’s not what you mean: unrelenting justice is part of god’s design, but don’t you ever - in a subversive moment - ask yourself “why?”
Do you ever ask yourself why “You and I deserve eternal punishment completely aside from whether or not we believe in (and trust) Christ for our salvation”?
OK, so it might well be the case that we've both screwed enough things up so that "an omniscient Being who is unwaveringly just could nail us, dead to rights,” but why should this unwaveringly just omniscient Being deem “eternal punishment” a just reward for my having done something which I didn’t even know was wrong? I mean, are you absolutely clear in your own mind what - apart from the “sin of unbelief” – will earn us eternal punishment?
I think if you asked a dozen Christians living in a dozen different countries what they regard as being mortal sins, you’d get a dozen slightly different lists.
Perhaps they would all agree that the “sin of unbelief is pivotal” but for reasons I set out in another post, I don’t see why it should be.
I tried to belief. I wanted to believe. If in the end I couldn’t whose fault was that?
(Actually, I now know what my mistake was: I was trying to believe in god whereas the people around me were certain of god. They knew of god’s existence as a fact, as I suspect you do. I didn’t know it as a fact. I accepted it was a fact because I was told it was, but when I wanted something substantial to prove it was a fact, there was silence.)
This brings me to your question: “What would it have taken for God to have made Himself real to you? What would have qualified as a personal experience of God? I'm curious what exactly you were looking for that you didn't find. “
Simply, I was looking for any experience of god which he cared to give me. After my confirmation, I got a pleasant, comfortable feeling during Holy Communion - our Anglican prayers are very beautiful indeed – (“Come unto me all that travail and are heavy laden and I will refresh you,” “We do not presume to come to this Thy holy Table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in they manifold and bountiful mercies...” etc etc) but it began to fade away so that I had to work really hard to recapture it, and eventually I gave up. I did continue, however, to pretend there was a god, and only abandoned the pretence when the absence of god forced me to.
I accept that this is all very mysterious to you: I accept that “at the point in my life where I questioned everything and tested what was real ... I very much found the answers and experienced the real God in a personal way.”

What I want to know is: why you and not me?
Time and again we come across this inconsistency of god manifesting himself to one person and withholding himself from another. In terms of you and I, the consequence is that you know there is a god and I know there isn’t - and this despite the earnest prayers of my closest family, especially of my parents. I think it reasonable to assume that they asked the members of their church to pray for me too, (well, they were anxious for my soul) so at one time or another there may have been perhaps 50 or more voices raised in supplication on my behalf. And my father’s brother, an Anglican Franciscan Friar who is also my God Father, undoubtedly prays for me every day, if not several times every day. And still the possibility of there being a god doesn’t even begin to make sense to me.
I’m just very glad that I don’t need to try explaining this sort of stuff away so as to retain my certainty of god’s existence!
Best wishes
ST-B