Buffman

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0206/26/cf.00.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0206/26/cf.00.html</a>

"CARLSON: Welcome to our brave new world. Stepping in the "Crossfire" tonight, the Reverend Barry Lynn. He's executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. And with him is the Reverend Lou Sheldon of the Traditional Values Coalition."

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0207/05/cf.00.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0207/05/cf.00.html</a>

"Stepping in the CROSSFIRE tonight, the Reverend Barry Lynn. He's executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. And with him is the Reverend Lou Sheldon of the Traditional Values Coalition."

Just nine days before a rebroadcast of the show. The first time I saw it, I was quite disappointed by Rev. Lynn's failure to utterly discredit Rev. Sheldon's remarks about the Northwest Territories Ordinance of 1787. This rebroadcast energized me to try and help folks get the facts. Here is just some of the accurate information I wish Rev. Lynn had presented to a national TV audience...twice. (My comments are identified by "xxxxx".)

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;

SHELDON: Well, the issue is this: that this has always been our basis, starting with the first act of Congress when the Northwest Territory was established. They said that the Northwest Territory is being established because they want to provide religion, morality and knowledge, and they were all necessary for good government, same way that George Washington ...

xxxxx First, the Northwest Ordinance was signed into law on July 13, 1787 by the 13th Continental Congress, not by the Constitutional Congress, because the U.S. Constitution was still in the process of being drafted. However, it is true that the First Constitutional Congress did confirm the action of the Confederation.

xxxxx Second, there were 14 Sections to the Ordinance. What Rev. Sheldon is quoting is a selective part of Section 14, Article 3 (of 6). This is the full text:

"Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged. The utmost good faith shall always be observed towards the Indians; their lands and property shall never be taken from them without their consent; and, in their property, rights, and liberty, they shall never be invaded or disturbed, unless in just and lawful wars authorized by Congress; but laws founded in justice and humanity, shall from time to time be made for preventing wrongs being done to them, and for preserving peace and friendship with them."

xxxxx Rev. Sheldon also fails to mention that Article 1 states:

"Art. 1. No person, demeaning himself in a peaceable and orderly manner, shall ever be molested on account of his mode of worship or religious sentiments, in the said territory."

xxxxx Rev. Sheldon also fails to mention that much of the land had already been sold to the Ohio and Scioto Land Companies (primarily Northeastern land speculators) at bargain basement prices; and it was their skillful congressional lobbying that pushed for passage of this Ordinance and repeal of the Thomas Jefferson resolutions of April 23, 1784.

<a href="http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nworder.htm" target="_blank">http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nworder.htm</a>

<a href="http://earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/ordinance/" target="_blank">http://earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/ordinance/</a>

<a href="http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/ord17857.html" target="_blank">http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/ord17857.html</a>

BEGALA: By the way this came out of the northwestern United States. How did they do?

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: How did it work out?

SHELDON: It worked out fine. I'll tell you why ...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Is that right? So they're all God-fearing ...

SHELDON: ... because the Congress believed that it was so important that as the West expanded, that the key be that religion be there. So they gave every so many sections of land in townships to the church, a church, and they paid for the building of that church, gave the land, built a church, paid the minister's salary for so long. That's a historic fact. The Senate made those treaties.

xxxxx Third, if Rev. Sheldon knows of some Congressional law which gave sections of land to the church, paid for the building of that church, built the church, and paid any ministers salary for any period of time, I would like to know the name of that law and when it was enacted, because it was not part of the NW Ordinance. The Ordinance did provide for the support of "education."

<a href="http://www.pbs.org/ktca/liberty/chronicle/northwest.html" target="_blank">http://www.pbs.org/ktca/liberty/chronicle/northwest.html</a>

(Extract)
First, that each would enter the union "on an equal footing with the original states." Second, that revenue generated from the sale of a portion of each township in the state would go to fund public education---the first instance of federal aid for education in American history. Third, "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude" were to be allowed. And four, that a good faith effort would be made to respect the Indians in the territory.
(End extract)


SHELDON: Furthermore, when Washington gave his farewell address in 1796, he said of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, and we all want political prosperity, two indispensable supports for political prosperity. What are they? Religion and morality. And what did the United States ...

xxxxx Fourth, I find it interesting that Washington did not specify a specific religion and separated religion from morality. One must wonder what he had in mind when he did.

(Added to provide an indication of what is being claimed by the propagandists/spin masters of the extreme religious right, and to help folks understand why Rev. Sheldon could be so far away from the accurate facts.)

<a href="http://members.aol.com/EndTheWall/NWOrd.htm" target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/EndTheWall/NWOrd.htm</a>

[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]

[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

Bokonon

I saw that. To be fair, Lynn wasn't given a fair shake towards the end. I suppose he just didn't expect that argument and never heard of it. I never heard the Northwest Ordinance argument before that telecast either.

I'm more disappointed with the fact that few people on our side seem to refute the "fact" that "this nation was founded by Christians." Even Newdow doesn't seem aware of Deism. He told O'Reilly something to the effect of, "Yes, yes, but they were Christians with great foresight." <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Oresta

I checked the chapters on Education and Religion in R. Carlyle Buley's Pulitzer-awarded The Old Northwest. While Article 3 of the Northwest Ordinance begins with "Religion" among those virtues necessary to "good government and the happiness of mankind", I found that the constitutions of the subsequent states make no mention of religion in the sections that foster education.
Ohio: "No law shall be passed to prevent the poor...from an equal participation in the schools, academies, colleges and universities of this State, which are endowed, from the revenues arising from the donations made by the United States..."
Indiana: "[the legislature] as soon as circumstances will permit, to provide, by law for a general system of education, ascending in regular graduation from township schools to a state university, wherein tuition shall be gratis, and equally open to all."

And so it goes similarly with mention of education in Michigan and and Illinois constitutions. (II, pp. 326-7) The legislators of these new states clearly conceptualized education as a public, secular institution for purposes other than religious instruction.

On religion, Buley has this to say:
I'm sorry I can find no text link to Buley's two-volume work. It is back in print and worth every penny as a reference for your book shelf.

The Old Northwest Pioneer Period: 1815-1840, R. Carlyle Buley; 1950, Indiana University Press, Bloomington.

[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: Oresta ]

[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: Oresta ]

[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: Oresta ]</p>

Oresta

Again from Buley: "When Manasseh Cutler made his bargain with Congress for the Ohio Company grant [emphasis mine}, he secured a grant of Section 16 for schools, plus Section 29 for the support of religion (the ministerial lands)..."
As Buffman points out, Section 29 being set aside for religion had nothing to do with Congress or the NWO.

Rev. Sheldon's outrageous claim that churches were supported on designated township section seems to be an egregious distortion of the Ohio ordinance that was the first in the territory to set aside Section 16 of each town for the establishment of a school to be supported by the township folks.

Buffman

As always, right on the button, Oresta. Thanks.

That 1785 Act appears to be the one making the authorizations. I haven't had time to research it yet.

Buffman

Bokonon

<a href="http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html" target="_blank">http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html</a>

(Extract)
Settling the West
In the spring of 1785 Congress debated regulations for settling the new western lands--stretching from the Alleghenies to the Mississippi--acquired from Great Britain in the Peace Treaty of 1783. It was proposed that the central section in each newly laid out township be reserved for the support of schools and "the Section immediately adjoining the same to the northward, for the support of religion. The profits arising there from in both instances, to be applied for ever according to the will of the majority." The proposal to establish religion in the traditional sense of granting state financial support to a church to be controlled by one denomination attracted support but was ultimately voted down.
(End extract)

<a href="http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/vc006503.jpg" target="_blank">http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/vc006503.jpg</a>

(Extract)
Northwest Ordinance
In the summer of 1787 Congress revisited the issue of religion in the new western territories and passed, July 13, 1787, the famous Northwest Ordinance. Article 3 of the Ordinance contained the following language: "Religion, Morality and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, Schools and the means of education shall be forever encouraged." Scholars have been puzzled that, having declared religion and morality indispensable to good government, Congress did not, like some of the state governments that had written similar declarations into their constitutions, give financial assistance to the churches in the West.
(End extract)

<a href="http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/vc006502.jpg" target="_blank">http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/vc006502.jpg</a>

(Please pay close attention to that last sentence and compare it with Rev. Sheldon's statement about, what we know was the Continental Congress rather than the Constitutional one, financial support of religion. It wouldn't surprise me if Rev. Sheldon took his lead from this very exhibit so, if challenged, he could declare that it was straight from the U.S. Goverment's Library of Congress Exhibit on "Religion and the Founding of the American Government." Thus getting another plug in for this slanted and flawed Christian Conservative world wide exhibit.)

When I read the above in the Library of Congress exhibit, I made particular note, in my "Essay of Indictment," of the subtle use of capitalization of "Morality" along with the required capitalizing of "Religion," but not the capitalization of "education." Scholars do not make those mistakes. Propagandists use them. I also included the information you see in my first post on this string...and comments about how these Christians treated the unconverted Indians.--- I sent a draft copy of my essay to Americans United but never heard back ...other than requests for more money. (They had already misplaced/lost a $1,000 check I had sent.) They have dedicated people but are understaffed. Rob Boston does great work on their behalf, but he is extremely busy. Barry does almost all the public spokesperson appearances because of his Rev. status. However, he seems unable to handle wild loudmouths like Sheldon who push propaganda. (The audience applauded Sheldon after that erroneous spiel and my heart sank.)

[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

Bokonon

I sent a letter to the Traditional Values Coalition (Sheldon's group). I await their reply.

To Whom it May Concern,

I have a question I hope someone from your organization can answer. On Crossfire, Rev. Lou Sheldon, representing the Traditional Values Coalition, stated, "... because the Congress believed that it was so important that as the West expanded, that the key be that religion be there. So they gave every so many sections of land in townships to the church, a church, and they paid for the building of that church, gave the land, built a church, paid the minister's salary for so long. That's a historic fact. The Senate made those treaties."

Unfortunately, I have found no record of any such rulings by the Senate. Such a provision is not in either of the Northwest Ordiances, nor have I located it in any other Congressional provisions. So my question is this: when and in which ruling did the Senate or House give sections of land to churches, pay for the building of churches, and pay miniter's salaries? Your assistance in this matter would be most helpful.

Thank you, and I await your reply.
Donald Lathbury

Buffman

Bokonon

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Good show. Just watch out for the 1785 answer.

Oresta

Buffmans exract from the LoC Exhibit:
The phrase I have highlighted is a dead giveaway as to the bias of the exhibit's curators. It is no mystery to true scholars why Congress failed to give financial assistance to churches in the West or anywhere else.

BTW, for all the Jeffersonian lip service given to education in the Ordinance and subsequent state constitutions, universal, public, tax-supported education was a long time a-coming in the West.

Buffman

Dead on! I missed that goodie. Thanks.