Rhea

Thank you.

Well, I don't actually tend my thoughts towards, "oh you're wrong", it's more "Oh so that's how he believes" ~shrug~ I dinno about the others.

But there are so many POINTS of wonder about you believe that it might seems like a constant addressing of the same issue, perhaps.

And by the way, some people DO think it is Very Cool to be able to think about the suffering of those they think wrong them. I believe it's been quoted here from christian philosophers. I also believe it's in your bible? And the NutWatch finds more than a few of them.

But I like discussing things. Hope it won't seem like I'm always "digging" at you, when it's really more like I described earlier - like studying an MC Escher drawing.

Muffinstuffer

Well, to be honest, it's tough to tell. On the one hand, I can identify (to a certain extent) with the feelings you have of "How ridiculous.....I can't believe he actually believes in that." But on the other hand, I'm not used to 23432 people telling me "Your beliefs are ludicrous and intolerable and genocidal and so on and so forth and I hate it and so should you for the same reasons I do." I can't say it's wrong to express these feelings, however...it's a free country.

I would agree to a certain extent, but I will also say that a lot of what I hear - both here and elsewhere - tends along the same lines...."How can you believe in a God that would banish good human beings, no matter what their creed, to an eternity of suffering and hell?" and so on. I somewhat disagree with the statement that "I" might actually be able to satisfactorily - FINALLY - answer questions about Christianity - because if the entirety of the members here at IIDB have been searching for those answers and can NOT find them, I somehow don't think I'm going to be the bearer of light.

Well, I do NOT think it is very cool. And I'm not saying there are not scriptures that appear to support your claim that there are those who do think it is cool, but I would like you to give me an example so I can go check it out.

Well, again, I still have the same question, to some extent, because there's too much "Your religion is ludicrous" going on for me to believe that this is the story for every person here. I'm not saying that is the case with you, because even if you violently disagree, you do so very respectfully, and I truly appreciate that. I don't mind discussing my beliefs, and if I can't answer questions, I apologize, and I don't think it's wrong to express beliefs and opinions, but it does not seem very intellectual or constructive to ask me or anyone else who holds to the doctrine I do questions with the eventual aim of exposing once again just how 'ludicrous' my beliefs are.

scombrid

The "great commission" is just a bit picked out and emphasized by the fundamentalist protestant movement to justify aggressive proselytization. If it's so important to your supposed god that we non-christians of many stripes be we atheist, hindu, jew, or muslim be converted, then he can intervene in a meaningful way. Otherwise he/she/it should know that the skeptical amoung us aren't going to take the unsubstantiated word of man for gospel and the superstitious amoung us are going to cling to whatever culture we are raised in. The "great commission" is going to cause nothing but conflict.

I was brought up conservative Baptist and we didn't foist our belief on people without invite. If religion came up then we were committed to tell the word as we knew it but we didn't seek converts. We didn't wander around the mall and strike up conversations and steer them toward religion so we could make our pitch.

If somebody asks "why is your life so good?" and you truly believe that goddidit then you're free to give your advice just as I might give my opinion on diet to a fellow athlete if asked how I put on muscle so fast. However, uninvited witnessing or proselytizing would be just like me going up to every skinny dude in the gym and telling him how to get big because I know the best diet. Maybe the skinny guy is a triathlete and doesn't want to get big. Just like maybe the irreligious person doens't want to get religious. The difference between the putz in the gym giving unsolicited advice to people that don't want it is that he is discussing a hobby. The religious proselytizer is discussing something that is generally of greater value and has greater potential to cause offense.

TomboyMom

You said: ?!?
Then maybe you shouldn't hold to it!!

Rhea

The irony is thick.... Welcome to the club?

Just a glimpse of what it's like to hear your vice president tell you you can't be a good citizen because of your beliefs, and 23432 other fellow citizens telling you that you are "wicked and immoral".

Honestly, in all seriousness, welcome to the club. At least here you just face individuals telling you they don't like your doctrine. You don't have the "best-selling book in the world" telling you and everyone who will listen so.

Think of it as a learning experience that can only be done by personal experience. You know the feeling of something that most Christians don't know the feeling of.


BTW, I'll be scare for a while - vacation starts in 7 hours... enjoy your stay at the II!

Ronin

It only requires one word.

It is all about the Christian constant assertion that their three-headed 'God' is good and loving and/or an inspiration for others to be so.

The problem every Christian I have debated, including you, can't find the mental capacity to reconcile perfect love and goodness with the answer to my question...your real humanity makes it too difficult.

...and you, Muffinstuffer, make my point so effective, yet again.

Ronin

Regarding your oft-claimed offense at having the ludicrous nature of Christianity expounded upon by many here at the IIDB, Muffinstuffer ~ you really seem to be only offended at the messengers and not the message.

How can anyone have an actual intelligent conversation over such a topic without speaking of men living in whales, wizards walking on water, talking to burning bushes, casting spells to cater to large crowds, talking snakes, walking dead, etc. and having a tortuous human sacrifice as a core blessing?

Should you be able to, please actually counter our position with information that such a Christian doctrine is good and loving.

The God of the Bible measures up to the level of a petty and vicious tyrant. He punishes babies for the sins of their parents (Ex 20:5, 34:7; Num 14:18; 2 Sam 12:13-19)...punishes people by causing them to become cannibals and eat their children (2 Kings 6:24-33, Lam 4:10-11)...gives people bad laws, even requiring the sacrifice of their firstborn babies, so that they can be filled with horror and know that God is their Lord (Ez 20:25-26)...causes people to believe lies so that he can send them to Hell, an everlasting fire (2 Thess 2:11)...and many other atrocities, far too many to list here.

It would not be hard to exceed the level of moral and ethical purity of such a deity.

Atheists surpass it every day.

Muffinstuffer

You obviously missed the facetiousness in my post.

Muffinstuffer

It also has to do with the fact that you really can NOT reconcile 100% what the Bible says with what the 'world' says. Not because there are no Christians who have answers, but because the world and the Bible (God/Jesus/etc.) are at odds, always have been, and always will be. As I've said before, if there are plenty of people out there who can not answer your question, what makes you think I can?

Or, for those of you who will read what I write one way, and interpret it another way, what I've said above means "I don't know all the answers, and I don't always have answers to all the questions." So feel free to feel victorious over the Christian point of view.

And you, Ronin, said pretty much exactly what I figured you might. You are out to prove a point that, in the end, is going to fall on 'deaf' ears, just as any words I can speak, no matter what, aren't going to change your point of view, nor anyone else's here. If you want me to say it in exact words, then I have no problem doing that: My doctrine says you are going to Hell.

Now, feel free to make the point you are driving at.

Also....yes, the offense of my beliefs being labeled as 'ludicrous' has occurred often. I only take 'offense' at the messengers when they repeat the same thing over and over. I do not know/have all the answers. I assure you that I'm going to look at the Scripture you have provided, pull out study guides, commentaries, and the like, and study them. However, it wouldn't change your point of view even if I DID have all the answers. If you are trying to 'back me into a doctrinal corner' so to speak, then that's fine, and I admit it by admitting I do not have all the answers and can not always find them.

That being said, now what? If you're going to continue to post to drive this point home to me again and again, you are wasting time, because I figured out a LONG time ago that I did not and never would have all the answers.

Cipher Girl

Hi Muffinstuffer
Also....yes, the offense of my beliefs being labeled as 'ludicrous' has occurred often. I only take 'offense' at the messengers when they repeat the same thing over and over. I do not know/have all the answers.

I think you finally got our point. What does it feel like?